Retailer denied my purchase....not NICS

[txgunnewbie]

Yesterday I went into a major firearm retailer for the first time to browse their extensive gun collection. There I found a beautiful vintage revolver. Overnight I decided I had to have this gun. So this morning my husband and I went back to the retailer. While there my husband decided to purchase a new firearm of his own. ***IMPORTANT INFO: He successfully passed a NICS check with NO delay/denial purchased a firearm on Friday of last week and Saturday. I also purchased a firearm of my own on Friday. No problems. So we fill out the paperwork, proceed to the counter, give drivers licenses, & fill out the electronic background check paperwork. The girl returns to the counter. Has me sign my approved paperwork and then informs my husband that he is denied. Both my husband and I know the denial is a mistake. He has no record of ANYTHING....EVER. Plus he just purchased 2 firearms within the last 4 days and passed clean and instantly. His situation is just an unfortunate hassle we will have to deal with.So we get the case # and within 5 minutes he has filed his appeal online. HOWEVER.....this retailer then informs me that they will not sell me my revolver because I share the address of someone who is denied. My heart sinks because this is a used item that will be placed back on the shelves and will likely be sold before my husband can hear back from the NICS. Here's my question.....due to the sequence of events, and the fact that we were each purchasing our own firearms, I don't feel this falls into a "straw purchase". I feel like this store is denying me my right to bear arms. Am I wrong? Is this legal? I hate to lose this gun, but I don't know what I can do at this point. I am sure this store has flagged my application now with my husband's. Thoughts? Help? Comments? If it helps, I live in Texas. No purchase limits.

 

[steelerdude99]

txgunnewbie, I'm confused, is there someone at your address who has been denied? If SO, then isn't it the NICS that denying the purchase (not the retailer)? If the NICS IS NOT denying, then there is no way to appeal.

chuck

 

[breakingcontact]

Sorry. Store isnt in a position to deny you your 2nd amendment rights. <deleted>

Its their store. Their property. Their policy.

Get on gunbroker and find a similar gun. Also in Texas anyways with a CHL there is no NICS nonsense so consider if that would help in your state/situation.

 

[dogtown tom]

txgunnewbie
Both my husband and I know the denial is a mistake. He has no record of ANYTHING....EVER.

He doesn't need to, FBI NICS will delay or deny a transaction when a name matches that of a prohibited person.

Plus he just purchased 2 firearms within the last 4 days and passed clean and instantly.

NICS is required to delete transactions at the end of the NICS business day (midnight Central). They would not have a record of your previous approved transactions.

HOWEVER.....this retailer then informs me that they will not sell me my revolver because I share the address of someone who is denied.

Not uncommon. Dealers are terrified of "straw purchases" and losing their license. Many will err on the side of caution and do exactly what that dealer did.

Here's my question.....due to the sequence of events, and the fact that we were each purchasing our own firearms, I don't feel this falls into a "straw purchase".

If you were purchasing the revolver for yourself....it isn't. But the store is free to have such a policy to protect itself.

I feel like this store is denying me my right to bear arms. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. The store has the right to deny any sale. Your right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with a storeowners right to not sell to you.

Is this legal?

Yes.

I hate to lose this gun, but I don't know what I can do at this point. I am sure this store has flagged my application now with my husband's. Thoughts? Help? Comments? If it helps, I live in Texas. No purchase limits.

See if the store will mark it SOLD and store it until your husbands denial is successfully appealed.

 

[Sam1911]

This is a very frustrating situation, but NO dealer EVER has to sell a firearm to someone that they don't want to sell to for any reason. It is perfectly legal for them to deny making a sale to you. That sounds harsh, but is reality.

(In reality, any retailer could do the same, but most don't have anything riding on what someone does with the products they sell. If you buy a table from a furniture dealer and then use it to run your counterfeit money printing press on, the table dealer doesn't get a visit from the FBI. Certain things go awry with a gun sale, and a gun dealer gets a lot more attention than he or she wants.)

Your situation obviously is not necessarily a straw purchase, or a case of you providing a firearm to a prohibited person (two separate felonies there), but it certainly MIGHT read that way and a dealer playing it safe would probably pull the plug on both of you until both of you are cleared.

There's no shame in a false positive -- it happens a lot and dealers are used to it -- but they're going to want to see it come back approved before they sell any guns to either of you.

About the best you can do in your situation is tell them that your husband is appealing the decision and ask if you can put that unique gun on layaway until he appeal comes back clear. Then they should have no problems.

 

[txgunnewbie]

Sorry....tried replying to specific posts, but not well versed at this forum thing.

Thanks to all....I did know that a store has the right to deny any sale. I guess I just felt really judged. This retailer was NOT very nice. I know they don't know the reason or lack of reasons for the denial, but if a false denial happens frequently, they sure didn't act like it. They actually were successful in making both of us feel like we actually were criminals trying to get away with a criminal act which was a very weird feeling for me. You are right, they are playing it safe which I understand. Since I cannot legally pay for the gun I couldn't actually ask them to hold until cleared. They said they would give me a 15 day hold on it before they put it back on the store floor. I am keeping my fingers crossed that since this is some sort of error, that it will clear us to purchase quickly. There is not a single other person in this country with my husband's name, so I don't know what is causing this. Very frustrating, but I know we are not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

So here is another question then.....if I am approved, but my husband is denied with a pending appeal, am I legally allowed to purchase? If I found something elsewhere? Or did I just become red flagged today because of my husband's denial?

 

[Art Eatman]

Sorta separate: To keep from losing out on the gun, see if the store will let you put it on layaway. Then, after the NICS appeal clears, go ahead and complete the purchase.

 

[Sam1911]

You are absolutely allowed to purchase from any dealer who will sell to you!

 

[breakingcontact]

Find a good gun shop that treats you right. They are out there.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Ncis #, fbi....

I don't have a JD & Im not a ATF special agent, but I think if you or your spouse have problems buying firearms from FFL(federal firearm license) holders, Id look into obtaining a special NCIS #.
The ATF(DoJ) has a special program for people who constantly get denied from buying guns due to errors or other problems(names, old-incorrect records, dates, etc).
The Yankee Marshal, a popular Youtube gun channel personality has stated in a few videos that he needs to use his NCIS # to buy firearms.
I'm not sure what the requirements or SOPs are but Id think you could find it online or by contacting the ATF or a lawyer who handles gun industry issues.
I'm lucky to have 2/3 sources in my metro area that can resolve these kinds of problems. One lawyer literally "wrote the book" on gun laws & policies. The other is a JD who also has a FFL & sells firearms. The gun shop owner/lawyer is also a US Navy veteran & former JAG office lawyer.

I can fully understand how or why a FFL holder or clerk would be jumpy about straw purchases. When I lived in the Pittsburgh PA area in the mid 1990s, the local gun shop I visited often had staff who thought I was a federal agent for some reason. They'd all "light up" when I came in & were more alert around the other customers. I never claimed or said I was any type of cop or fed but I always thought it was funny.

Rusty

 

[JVaughn]

I hope you don't shop there anymore following this event. Your rights are violated every time you are forced to fill out that background check garbage anyhow, and I like you think the retailer added insult to injury with your denial. Spend your money elsewhere. Good luck with the appeal.

 

[dogtown tom]

RustyShackelford .........Id look into obtaining a special NCIS #.

NCIS is a TV show I believe you mean a NICS UPIN (Unique Personal Identification Number)

The ATF(DoJ) has a special program for people who constantly get denied from buying guns due to errors or other problems(names, old-incorrect records, dates, etc).

correct. The UPIN and a Voluntary Appeal File allows the FBI NICS to keep your transaction information available permanently.

I'm not sure what the requirements or SOPs are but Id think you could find it online or by contacting the ATF or a lawyer who handles gun industry issues.

Simply contact the FBI NICS section (ATF has nothing to do with Brady checks)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics-appeals-process/appeals-home

 

[ole farmerbuck]

I have a UPIN and was delayed a few months ago! I left the gun shop, went to the grocery store and within 5 minutes they called and said I was clear. 2nd time for that to happen even with a UPIN.

 

[txgunnewbie]

I don't have a JD & Im not a ATF special agent, but I think if you or your spouse have problems buying firearms from FFL(federal firearm license) holders, Id look into obtaining a special NCIS #.

I think we are going to have to look into that. I never knew my spouse had problems buying firearms until it happened today. He owns 3, all background checked, so today was a 1st for us. But now that I have recently caught "the shooting range bug" I think more guns will be in our future over the years. I don't ever want to go through this again.

As far as never shopping there again.....I feel the same way. I had never shopped there before, but they were not nice about the denial and when I asked them if we could double check the accuracy of the info we submitted just in case something was submitted wrong, they laughed and said that that is never a problem. I guess people never mis-type a digit in a DL or SSN, or misspell a word......yeah right. My husband said he will not be purchasing the gun he wanted from them. He will go elsewhere once this is cleared up. That's fine for him since the one he wanted was an off-the-shelf-model. The one I want however, is not easy to come by and I don't want to purchase online where I can't see it and inspect it myself. I may end up buying it from them if they still have it when this is all clear, unless I find something just as good or better somewhere else.

 

[Jim K]

If you have an unusual name, it is possible that the store clerk called it in wrong (maybe using a more common spelling), and the erroneous name was that of someone who is prohibited.

Jim

 

[tarosean]

Plus he just purchased 2 firearms within the last 4 days and passed clean and instantly

Did you buy the guns from the same dealer?

If you are in a state that borders Mexico, ( Arizona, California, New Mexico, & Texas) there are special FFL forms required for multiple handgun purchases at the same time or within 5 business days.

.........

 

[788Ham]

You'd mentioned in post #6, "That no other person in this country has my husbands name.", or close enough. Just be grateful for that, in checking the White Pages phone numbers in my state on my IPad, for people with "My full name", I found 73 of us ! 3 of them live in the same city I reside in ! Just be grateful.

 

[txgunnewbie]

If you have an unusual name, it is possible that the store clerk called it in wrong (maybe using a more common spelling), and the erroneous name was that of someone who is prohibited.

That is what I thought at first since there are only 7 living people in the US with our last name and 6 of those are my family members, until I remembered this was an electronic submittal, not a call-in like his first purchase was. At this point who knows. Now that I am not mad about the mix-up I am VERY curious to see what their reason is if they give a reason for mistake denials. At this point I would just like it corrected so we can move on. My husband who has never thought about getting a CCL, is now actively looking into it to just not have to deal with a UPIN or delays or anything else. I am thinking of doing the same.

 

[breakingcontact]

So long as you are legally able to do so you can also buy privately and not have to deal with all the background check business (depending on your state).

 

[km101]

Since you live in Texas, just get a CHL. Problem solved. No NICS check required. Just fill out the 4473, pay, and you're on your way!

Beats the hassle of dealing with the ATF for the UPIN.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Thanks Dog!....

Big ups to Dogtown.
I often watch TV & type messages or posts. I sometimes get distracted(that darn Kate Upton clips on TMZ & such ).

As posted, errors or minor glitches can create a lot of havoc.
In the 2012/2013 panic, I heard media reports of CO's CBI background checks going from 20-25min to 7 days!
That's nuts.
I got a new state issued CCW license so I can buy a handgun the same day. I still need to do background checks($5.00) but it's less of a hassle.
FWIW; I had some legal-police issues in 2012. I included the court records & certified copies with my CCW paperwork IAW the state policy. I got my new CCW in about 24 days.

 

[heycods]

I think you are from Texas, take your concealed handgun permit, itwill never happen in the future. Experience speaking.

 

[dogtown tom]

tarosean .....If you are in a state that borders Mexico, ( Arizona, California, New Mexico, & Texas) there are special FFL forms required for multiple handgun purchases at the same time or within 5 business days.

Actually the multiple sale of handgun form is required in EVERY state.....it's Federal law.

The four border states are required by ATF (not Federal law) to also report multiple sales of "certain rifles"....."centerfire rifles of .22cal or greater that accept a detachable magazine".

 

[CoalTrain49]

Generally what happens is a delay, not a denial. A name or address change or recent dealings with a court may have something to do with it. Did he correctly fill the form out? Sometimes an incorrect entry will trigger a denial. I would look at that to make sure it's correct.

I have a common name. I was on a terrorist watch list for awhile and missed a flight because of it. I couldn't do express check in for a few years and had to present myself to an agent with I.D. to board. This I.D. thing gets to be very tedious and the NICS system doesn't work very well. I'm always delayed (never denied) even though I have no record, I'm a vet, had the same gov't employer for 30 years and the same address for 15 years. I've had guns that I wanted to purchase be sold to someone else because the dealer didn't wait for approval from NICS.

I would advise you against getting a UPIN. You are basically letting the gov't keep those records indefinitely which has the potential for abuse. Above advice concerning CCP, CPP, CWP or whatever Texas calls it is the best solution. There are numerous benefits, some you may never realize until you are detained. It carries some weight with LEO.

 

[Elkins45]

As others have suggested, hopefully they will put it on lawaway or mark it sold until the appeal clears. Never hurts to ask.