Rethink 357sig re-sizing methodology?

[vaalpens]

I have been using my 40S&W die to re-size the body of my 357sig brass, and then use the 357sig die without lube to basically resize the neck. This has been working great for me when doing it on a small scale while learning to reload 357sig.

Today I decided to start going through my 357sig brass and put all of them through my re-sizing process. I started with once fired Fiocchi brass (GFL headstamp) and everything went smoothly. I then started on my backlog of Starline brass, but found a few of them had a bit more resistance when using the 357sig re-sizing die. On further inspection I found a few of the re-sized brass were out of spec where the case head meets the body. It seemed that a lip was created when brass from the body was forced down. The diameter over the lip was measured at .4360", which obviously is out of spec. (see attached picture)

I measured the Starline and GFL brass and it seems the Starline is at the max SAAMI spec of .424" which obviously makes a very tight fit for the re-sizing die.

It seems this problem with some of the brass is due to one of three things: 1)Brass issue 2)Die issue 3)Lube issue.

It is probably a lube issue, but I thought that if I would see any issue because I don't lube before re-size, that I would see a neck issue. I did not expect a body re-sizing issue since it has already been re-sized by the 40S&W die.

I would appreciate it if any body has any suggestion regarding the re-sizing issue I see.

The brass on the right has the lip and the brass on the left is a max SAAMI spec (.4240 (+.004))

 

[rcmodel]

Lube is necessary for the body, not so much for the much thinner neck.

The thickest part of any case is near the case head, and that is the part that most needs case lube to allow resizing it.

You got by with it in the .40 die because it is a carbide die and doesn't have to be lubed.

Your .357 SIG die is not carbide, it it does require case lube to prevent galling the case to the die body from friction.

Not to say that is what is causing your problem.
It could be an over-size case issue.

Or a die without enough entry taper and polishing to prevent the sharp edge forming.

rc

 

[JimKirk]

You'd be wise to get a Redding G-RX die and push the entire case through it ... I got some of the same "lines" ... the brass is swelling a little where it is not supported by the chamber ... it is not really a "Glock bulge" .... but when the sharp edge of the sizer contacts it ... it forms the ridge as in the photo... The G-Rx die is tapered and smoothly sizes that back with out the ridge ... I run all my 357 SIG brass through one and then through the SIG sizing die ...

This is where I use the lanolin/alcohol lube in a zip lock bag .... you really don't have to relube after the G-Rx die ... but I do a light spray ...

My G-Rx is steel and later they came out with the carbide version ....

 

[vaalpens]

rc,

Thanks for the information. I don't have any experience loading bottleneck cartridges or using non-carbide dies for that matter, so this was new to me. Your explanation gave me a better understanding of what the issue could be. I am definitely going to add lube to my process. If the issue persist, then I know I have to look at the die and/or brass as possible culprits.

 

[vaalpens]

You'd be wise to get a Redding G-RX die and push the entire case through it ... I got some of the same "lines" ... the brass is swelling a little where it is not supported by the chamber ... it is not really a "Glock bulge" .... but when the sharp edge of the sizer contacts it ... it forms the ridge as in the photo... The G-Rx die is tapered and smoothly sizes that back with out the ridge ... I run all my 357 SIG brass through one and then through the SIG sizing die ...

This is where I use the lanolin/alcohol lube in a zip lock bag .... you really don't have to relube after the G-Rx die ... but I do a light spray ...

My G-Rx is steel and later they came out with the carbide version ....

JimKirk,

Thanks for this additional insight. I have seen on another thread where you mentioned the G-Rx die. I did not think I would need it, but if the lube doesn't solve my problem, then I will have to look into getting the G-Rx die. I did not see any bulging on the cases, but in any case I think the G-Rx die is something I need to look into since I will have to purchase some additional brass at some point of time, and some of these could have a bulge.

 

[Walkalong]

As posted, you must lube for the steel die, even though they are "sized" already. They are still a tight fit (Spring back) and must be lubed. Lube the cases, then if it still creates a ridge you are sizing down to far, and you need to adjust the sizer up 1/16 or so. Then see if they chamber. I bet they will. If not, the G-RX is an option, albeit a pricy one.

 

[JimKirk]

Lee makes a Bulge Buster die for the 40 S&W(357 SIG) ... I have never used or seen one ... pretty sure it will be cheaper than the Redding ... I have not used the carbide version of the Redding G-Rx either ... it is a lot of $$ ...

I don't size any brass that has the "Glock Bulge" ... anything of that sort goes in the scrap bucket... but the brass in your photo very small swell in it ... the 357 SIG is a high pressure cartridge ..

 

[Potatohead]

Vaal,
I noticed another 357sig thread floating around here that had a lot of folks mentioning how they size. Just making sure you know, didnt want you to miss something that might help.

On reloading bottleneck, I too, am more of a pistol guy but have loaded 4-500 bottleneck..and holy shmoley there's more case prep involved. Last time I prepped 223 brass my wife asked me if I had some weird relationship with that batch that she needed to know about-because it seemed like I carried those things around the house with me every day for about 2 weeks before i got done with them!

 

[vaalpens]

As posted, you must lube for the steel die, even though they are "sized" already. They are still a tight fit (Spring back) and must be lubed. Lube the cases, then if it still creates a ridge you are sizing down to far, and you need to adjust the sizer up 1/16 or so. Then see if they chamber. I bet they will. If not, the G-RX is an option, albeit a pricy one.

Walkalong, I am probably at fault here. Tried to get away from doing the lube by resizing first with 40S&W die, but it seems it is not a 100% solution. I have not tried chambering a round like this, but the brass will actually pass the plunk test even with the created sharp edge/lip since it is so low down on the body. I actually just ordered a few Lee parts to keep available when needed, and also ordered just the punch part of the kit since I already have the Lee FCD which is used with the kit. I will try the bulger buster before spending any money on the G-Rx.

 

[vaalpens]

Lee makes a Bulge Buster die for the 40 S&W(357 SIG) ... I have never used or seen one ... pretty sure it will be cheaper than the Redding ... I have not used the carbide version of the Redding G-Rx either ... it is a lot of $$ ...

I don't size any brass that has the "Glock Bulge" ... anything of that sort goes in the scrap bucket... but the brass in your photo very small swell in it ... the 357 SIG is a high pressure cartridge ..

JimKirk, It seems that the issue is only with the Starline brass. I am going to try the Lee bulge buster since I already have the 40S&W FCD. I just ordered the punch/pusher just to try it out.

I was also thinking that if I get a few of these (with the small swell), and since I don't know the origin of the Starline brass, maybe it shows an underlying issue where the brass had some excess pressure, and it will be safer to to discard them in any case.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[vaalpens]

Vaal,
I noticed another 357sig thread floating around here that had a lot of folks mentioning how they size. Just making sure you know, didnt want you to miss something that might help.

On reloading bottleneck, I too, am more of a pistol guy but have loaded 4-500 bottleneck..and holy shmoley there's more case prep involved. Last time I prepped 223 brass my wife asked me if I had some weird relationship with that batch that she needed to know about-because it seemed like I carried those things around the house with me every day for about 2 weeks before i got done with them!

Potatohead, I am also more a pistol guy but decided on 357sig since it was a bit more challenging. There are different ways to approach resizing, and one of them is the use the carbide 40S&W die to resize the body, and then the steel 357sig to resize the neck without lube. This is the approach I followed, but now it seems that it works 95% of the time.

This is all part of my learning curve and I am enjoying it. My wife probably also thinks I have a relationship with my brass since I am always busy doing something with the brass. Now with 357sig it is even worse. I should probably stay away from loading rifle rounds.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[JimKirk]

It seems that the issue is only with the Starline brass.

Were they fired in your chamber?

If not ... could be ... they were fired a slightly larger chamber.... could be slightly softer brass ... could have been a higher pressure load ... could have been made slightly larger to begin with...

Whatever the reason they ended up be slightly larger than your other ... and the die trying to bring them down to size ... and left that ridge ...

If you have all the parts for the Lee Buster except for the pusher ... I would surely give it a good before I spent the $$ for the G-RX ...

Fairly easy to make a pusher ... take a grade 5 or 8 .... 3/8"bolt .... need one that the unthreaded part is long enough to make a ram ... put it in a drill and grind it down to fit your shell holder or to fit the slot of your ram ... cut the threads off and grind good and flat with a slightly rounded edge ...

I ground down the G-Rx pusher to fit a .30/06 size ... to fit the shellholder of my CoAx press....

 

[vaalpens]

Were they fired in your chamber?

If not ... could be ... they were fired a slightly larger chamber.... could be slightly softer brass ... could have been a higher pressure load ... could have been made slightly larger to begin with...

Whatever the reason they ended up be slightly larger than your other ... and the die trying to bring them down to size ... and left that ridge ...

If you have all the parts for the Lee Buster except for the pusher ... I would surely give it a good before I spent the $$ for the G-RX ...

Fairly easy to make a pusher ... take a grade 5 or 8 .... 3/8"bolt .... need one that the unthreaded part is long enough to make a ram ... put it in a drill and grind it down to fit your shell holder or to fit the slot of your ram ... cut the threads off and grind good and flat with a slightly rounded edge ...

I ground down the G-Rx pusher to fit a .30/06 size ... to fit the shellholder of my CoAx press....

JimKirk, thanks again for taking the time to respond to me questions. I was actually in the process of ordering a few things from Lee, so adding the pusher for $2.75 probably won't break the bank. It is always nice to see other ways to accomplish the same thing. You should post your homemade pusher on the What clever little things have you invented or discovered that you can share? thread.

The Starline were not fired in my chamber, but all the GFL's were. I have a few Starline I fired in my chamber and will check them out to see if the have the same issue.

 

[GLOOB]

Are these fired cases, or brand new Starline cases?

It's wise to use a little lube for brand new cases. Even straight walled.

Fairly easy to make a pusher ... take a grade 5 or 8 .... 3/8"bolt .... need one that the unthreaded part is long enough to make a ram ... put it in a drill and grind it down to fit your shell holder or to fit the slot of your ram ... cut the threads off and grind good and flat with a slightly rounded edge ...

Another way is to trim a 9mm case down about halfway. Then fill it with epoxy. But when I have some time I definitely want to turn down a proper pusher.

All you need is the Lee FCD die. Unscrew the top and remove the crimp ring. Then push your cases through with the pusher.

 

[vaalpens]

Are these fired cases, or brand new Starline cases?

It's wise to use a little lube for brand new cases. Even straight walled.


Another way is to trim a 9mm case down about halfway. Then fill it with epoxy. But when I have some time I definitely want to turn down a proper pusher.

All you need is the Lee FCD die. Unscrew the top and remove the crimp ring. Then push your cases through with the pusher.

GLOOB, thanks for the input. These are fired cases (not my gun) and only some of them had the issue. I have a pusher ordered and will be using it and my 40S&W Lee FCD and see if it makes a difference.

 

[vaalpens]

I just want to give a quick update following all the good advice I have received.

I received the $2.75 pusher from Lee to use with mt 40S&W FCD and pushed about 100 Starline brass through the Lee FCD. I did not have a re-size lube at hand yet, so I just used some Kiwi neutral polish on my fingers and picked up the brass with it. Every time it started feeling less smooth, I just touched the polish again. I will probably get something better since it will last a very long time. The brass was measured where I had the issues and I could see the FCD brought it down from as high as .429" to .4245".

After everything went through the FCD, I put all the brass through the 357sig sizer/decapper. No additional lube used this time. This time I had no issues with the 357sig re-sizer and everything went very smooth.

I did not touch the inside of the neck with my fingers, but I decided to throw the brass back into the tumbler again just to remove any residue.

So it looks to me that it was about the best $2.75 I spent getting the pusher. No the only thing remaining is to load some of these up and see if I have any additional issues. At least for now it seems that I will have a process in place for my 357sig to prevent any re-size issues.

Thanks again for all the free advice I have received from the THR members.

 

[picker]

When I load 357 sig I have taken once fired 40S&W and give it a shot of Hornadys one shot lube, run Them through my Dillion with 357 sig carbide die deprime/prime drop powder seat bullet crimp plunk test maybe measure a few to make sure the run is within spec and shoot, many rounds with very good accuracy.......Best/picker

 

[JimKirk]

I too have made a few 357 SIG out of .40 S&W brass ... it will work, but the really short neck of the SIG becomes even way shorter if made out of .40 brass .... and no the 357 SIG does NOT head space on the case mouth or these 357/40 brass would not work .... there are plenty of 357 SIG out there ....

I was said in the beginning that the web area of a SIG brass was beefed up slightly to handle the even higher pressures of the SIG round ... the 357 does run at higher pressures in some loads ...

Just be careful ....

 

[vaalpens]

When I load 357 sig I have taken once fired 40S&W and give it a shot of Hornadys one shot lube, run Them through my Dillion with 357 sig carbide die deprime/prime drop powder seat bullet crimp plunk test maybe measure a few to make sure the run is within spec and shoot, many rounds with very good accuracy.......Best/picker

picker, using 40 brass is one of the options but since I am concerned about setback, I have decided to not even try the 40 option. At least for now 357sig brass is still available. Thanks for the comments..

 

[vaalpens]

I too have made a few 357 SIG out of .40 S&W brass ... it will work, but the really short neck of the SIG becomes even way shorter if made out of .40 brass .... and no the 357 SIG does NOT head space on the case mouth or these 357/40 brass would not work .... there are plenty of 357 SIG out there ....

I was said in the beginning that the web area of a SIG brass was beefed up slightly to handle the even higher pressures of the SIG round ... the 357 does run at higher pressures in some loads ...

Just be careful ....

JimKirk, Thanks again for the comments. Regarding the web area of the Starline brass that I am dealing with. My feeling is that since it is only the Starline brass that has the issue, that maybe they were subjected to maximum pressure or even more. Even when seating the primers I notice that the primers go in with very little resistance, compared to my other brass. I don't load mine full tilt, so going forward the brass should be fine but I will just have to keep an even closer eye on them. This is the first time I am loading them, but they have been loaded and fired before.

 

[JimKirk]

Trim length of 357 SIG: 0.860"

I just ran out to the shop and sized a Speer .40 S&W brass down to 357 SIG ...

The .40 brass measured 0.840" before sizing...

The results after sizing to 357 SIG: 0.845" ...

This means you have 0.860" minus 0.845" equals 0.015" less neck than the trimmed 357 SIG brass ... it already has almost too little neck(reason for setback) ...

I know a lot of folks will say 0.15" is not much and it is not ... but when you're short every little bit helps...

 

[Walkalong]

Percentage wise of the proper neck length, it isn't so small.

but when you're short every little bit helps...

Same thing.

 

[vaalpens]

I decided to follow JimKirk's example and also size a 40S&W brass to 357sig. Here are my results:

Speer Brass:
-Original length: .8425"
-length after sizing: .8480"

Created a dummy round with Berrys HBFP TP .356" bullet using same process as life rounds.
-Crimp: .378"
-COL: 1.1350"

Did a short cycle test and bathroom scale test.
-COL after cycle 1: 1.1335"
-COL after cycle 2: 1.1330"
-COL after cycle 3: 1.1330"

Completed bathroom scale test after 3 cycles and were able to hold 22lbs for about 5 seconds until the scale registered the weight.

Did a second bathroom scale test and held it for another 5 seconds and it registered 21lbs.

Based on my test it seems that the resized 40 brass can be used for plinking as long as you do due diligence and ensure there is no setback with the brass/bullet combination.

I will have to test some other brass, but if I try this with life rounds, then I will probably measure my 40 brass and pick the longest pieces to be converted to 357sig.

**edit** If I ever use 40 brass for 357sig then I will make sure that the powder charge is on the low end of the scale since 357sig brass is designed to run at a higher pressure.

 

[GLOOB]

I received the $2.75 pusher from Lee

I happened to look this up on the Lee site before I read this. And yeah, at 2.75, I will not be turning a pusher, lol. Next time I have an order for Lee Precision, I'll be adding this to my cart. Thanks for sharing.

 

[vaalpens]

I happened to look this up on the Lee site before I read this. And yeah, at 2.75, I will not be turning a pusher, lol. Next time I have an order for Lee Precision, I'll be adding this to my cart. Thanks for sharing.

GLOOB, you are welcome. With the pusher only you need to take out a piece of brass after you pushed another one through or make your own brass catcher. The Lee Bulge Buster kit has the plastic catcher and the sleeve and can be bought from Amazon for $16.89, which is still cheap. I will probably buy the kit at some time just to have another pusher, but for now just the pusher is doing the trick.