Rethinking the robbery scenario strategy

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Yes it is, if one also can make a situation-specific assessment of that oi most likely to happen.

That's because the risk of injury during a robbery is likely to be affected by the actions of the victim. A robber may be much less likely to shoot a compliant victim than to shoot one who attempts to draw a gun or one who has drawn or even fired.

Speaking for myself, it is whatever course of action seems most likely to prevent me from being seriously injured.

I agree that it is rational for each defender or victim to select the most appropriate tactic, a tactic that best meets their needs. In this case, the tactic that is "most likely to prevent me from being seriously injured." But when I talk about something being reasonable, I'm speaking strictly in the narrow sense of something that a "...reasonable, prudent person would construe..." to be reasonable in determining whether use of deadly force could be legally justified.

I got the impression that you might think that the use deadly force by a defender was reasonable and could be legally justified when the robber showed the butt of his gun when you wrote this (if I have misunderstood, please correct me):

Do you really think that defenders would be legally required to wait until an armed robber has actual started to draw his gun before employing deadly force?

I saw it, marshal! The sod-buster drew first! It was self defense!"

Am I close?
 
I got the impression that you might think that the use deadly force by a defender was reasonable and could be legally justified when the robber showed the butt of his gun when you wrote this (if I have misunderstood, please correct me)
I see no possible reason whatsoever to believe that it would not be lawfully justified, but whether it would be "reasonable" in terms of being prudent would be something to be decided at the time.
 
But when I talk about something being reasonable, I'm speaking strictly in the narrow sense of something that a "...reasonable, prudent person would construe..." to be reasonable in determining whether use of deadly force could be legally justified.
And that's probably why we got sidetracked here with AOJ. If we're discussing whether or not you should choose to try and draw and fire, in the context of this thread at least, the legal justification (as formed in our own minds anyway) is a given. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be making plans to shoot anyone.

But legal justification does not tell you, at all actually, whether you SHOULD try and shoot this guy. Just because it would be legally defensible to do so doesn't mean that your odds of survival improve if you do.
 
And that's probably why we got sidetracked here with AOJ. If we're discussing whether or not you should choose to try and draw and fire, in the context of this thread at least, the legal justification (as formed in our own minds anyway) is a given. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be making plans to shoot anyone.

But legal justification does not tell you, at all actually, whether you SHOULD try and shoot this guy. Just because it would be legally defensible to do so doesn't mean that your odds of survival improve if you do.

Absolutely agreed.
 
We've heard from Kleanbore. In others' opinions, where does the robber cross the line where deadly force is a legally reasonable alternative, and therefore legally justified?
 
I don't think that's what the thread is about. We've had so many threads on the LEGALITY of using deadly force, it seems a shame to push this one to be yet another of those, doesn't it?


In fact, I don't think you're really hearing what Kleanbore has said, even now. Legal justification isn't under question here. That's NOT what we're discussing. So asking others to comment on when they think a robbery might cross the threshold of legal justification is quite off the topic.
 
I don't think that's what the thread is about. We've had so many threads on the LEGALITY of using deadly force, it seems a shame to push this one to be yet another of those, doesn't it?


In fact, I don't think you're really hearing what Kleanbore has said, even now. Legal justification isn't under question here. That's NOT what we're discussing. So asking others to comment on when they think a robbery might cross the threshold of legal justification is quite off the topic.

Only if you believe that legal justification and the selection of tactics are separate and distinct issues.

As I pointed out above, they are always intertwined, and they always matter, not just after the fact. If a defender's actions will be judged to be legally justifiable or not justifiable based on these principles, then we had better consider them both, in the moment as well as afterwards. They have to be considered especially if, in the OP's words, these events are "shifting the 'what do I do' calculus" in the direction of a quicker response.
 
Ok, right. Of course. But as I said, IF WE'RE DISCUSSING SHOOTING (in this context) AOJ HAS BEEN MET. Period. At least as best as we can see from our spot in the moment. Others may argue that later, but right now, we're good to go. With that out of the way, what we're discussing here is whether/how to decide if shooting is the best way out of the situation.

Heading the discussion back into "is it legal?" is like taking a great big step backward and not really biting into the meat of the discussion.
 
BTW, it appears that the first murder at the convenience store WAS likely an incident where the robber went very quickly to gunfire. Probably the second murder there, too.

"SAPULPA, Okla. – Police believe the man accused of killing two people inside an Oklahoma gas station may have actually planned out the attack.

Around 7:30 p.m. Sunday, a man walked into a small gas station in Sapulpa, near Main Street and Burnham Ave, and pulled out a gun.

Police say that man then shot the clerk, 46-year-old Mohid Khandker, in the back of the head.

Khandker was also the owner of the store.

After allegedly killing Khandker, the gunman stepped over his body and walked to the cash register, according to an arrest report obtained by the Tulsa World.

While he was behind the counter, 40-year-old Robert Fields walked into the store.

That is when the suspect shot Fields in the face, killing him.

According to the Tulsa World, the suspect reportedly took the cash from the register as well as several packages of cigarettes before leaving the store.

Authorities released surveillance images of the suspect and were able to identify him as 37-year-old Heath Haney.

About an hour later, around 8:30 p.m., a customer walked into the store and found Khandker and Fields both dead from gunshot wounds."

http://kfor.com/2017/01/24/police-believe-double-homicide-at-oklahoma-gas-station-was-premeditated/



The laundromat murders don't appear to have been an attack from an unforseeable ambush.

"But, police believe robbery was the motive.

They said, as the store manager was being robbed at gunpoint, a customer tried to help her.

"Altercation occurred inside the drop office there. The customer that was inside attempted to assist her to help her out, and both of them were shot in the process," said Captain Ted Kleber with the Del City Police Department.

Another customer walked in minutes later and discovered the two bodies."

/http://kfor.com/2017/01/23/del-city-police-investigating-double-homicide-inside-laundromat/
 
There are many levels or stages to contemplate in dissecting a lethal force encounter. Probably more than I'll even mention here, but I can see looking at something like this with these questions:

Tier 1: What am I doing that makes me vulnerable to situations like this? This is REAL big picture. Where do I live, and should I move some place safer? What do I drive and is it a magnet for unwanted attention? Am I an easy looking mark? Do I have bad habits that make me vulneable?

Tier 2: What lead me into THIS situation? How is my situational awareness? Why did I not see the danger before it happened and how could I be a tougher mark to trap?

Tier 3: What are the legalities of responding with force and with deadly force? Has the "AOJ" standard been met, as nearly as I can tell in the moment?

Tier 4: What is the most realistic course of action for getting out of this alive? I'm "cleared to shoot" based on the legalities as I understand them, but is trying to get my gun out the best way to try and survive this? Can I afford to hold for a moment and see where I think this is going? Will reaching for my iron get that guy's trigger finger moving back? Can I hit him fast enough? Will my hit keep him from killing me? Etc.

Sure, all these are related and the questions and answers somewhat overlap, but I think we're entirely down in Tier 4, in this discussion. No need to back up and ask if I should have moved to a different town, or whether I should have peered in the store windows before I entered, or whether that gun in his hand makes it legally acceptable to shoot him.
 
This has been a most interesting discussion and I am glad I kicked it off. I glean the following from all that has been said:

1. Anyone present at am armed robbery with the means to produce a weapon and shoot is legally justified if certain conditions have been met, and the bar for that is quite low -- essentially, any action or verbal implication on the part of the robber that conveys the message, "I am armed and robbing you and will use force to make you comply." Basically, anyone engaged in armed robbery can be assumed to be a lethal threat to the CCW holder and anyone else who is present. He does not have to point a gun at you specifically/

2. Instantaneous discretion is always required, including assessment of angles, positions, the possibility of drawing and firing safely for all except the robber (honestly we don't care about his well being.) This discretion is subject to constant change as the situation evolves.

3. In my opinion an armed robbery can NEVER be assumed to be a simple case of "it's only money and probably insured," so let him walk. There are enough instances on record (and in my personal experience) to show that any armed robbery can easily escalate to homicide, given the fact that armed robbers are by nature criminals with minimal regard for others and are often under the influence of chemicals, with clouded judgment.

4. I am not aware of any use of a firearm up to and including lethal force where a CCW holder/bystander or a victim was prosecuted in a clear case of self defense, which as noted above it becomes at the moment when the bad guy announces his intentions by word or deed.

So just about everyone who has posted here is at least partly right . . . and there is no hard and fast rule. It is absolutely true that a huge percentage of robberies do not result in the physical injury or death of victims or bystanders, but there is NO way to be certain of whether your personal experience will fall under the 99 percent rule or the 1 percent, with fatal consequences.

For those reasons I tend to continue to believe that one needs to assume a worst case scenario to maximize personal safety. Which does not mean fraw and fire reflexively, but does mean IMO keep that option always active if the situation allows it.
 
Several here have said that legal justification is not at all related to the tactics that a victim or defender might use during an armed robbery (I think that the word “conflated” was used a couple of times). This is not correct. Legal justification can and does, in fact, constrain the menu of tactics that are available to a victim or third-party defender.
Assuming that a person chooses to abide by the law then it constrains them in some ways (from a legal standpoint) but the earlier comments you made seemed to imply that if legal justification existed then the defender should go ahead and use deadly force.

It is certainly true that the lack of legal justification should prevent a law-abiding person from using deadly force, but the existence of legal justification shouldn't prompt a person to use deadly force if they feel it is reasonable to avoid doing so.
Is it reasonable to weigh the risk of injury during an armed robbery on the basis of perception or even real data regarding the risk of murders and other severe injuries committed during armed robberies?
Of course it is. A person should know the facts and then make a determination of how to respond to the situation based on the facts and the circumstances. If their determination is that it would be reasonable to avoid starting a gunfight during an armed robbery then that is almost certainly the best course of action given that the across the board odds of surviving a gunfight are much lower than the across the board odds of surviving an armed robbery.
Legal justification and tactics are inseparably intertwined, not "2 separate issues conflated together".
Tactics is all about the best strategy for achieving the goal--presumably emerging uninjured at the end of the incident. Legal justification is about not going to jail afterwards.

If someone makes me nervous and I think that there's the potential for them to be a threat, the best tactic would be to take them out so that I don't have to worry about them any more. So next chance I get, I walk up behind them and put a round in their head. That is EXCELLENT tactics. I have eliminated a potential threat with no risk of injury to myself.

But it is also premeditated murder and there is no chance that it is legally justifiable.

A perfect example where tactics and legal justification have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Tactics and legal justification are separate issues and conflating the two will result in confusion--just as it has in this discussion. Legal justification places some overall limits on tactics (at least for people who follow the law) but inside those limits there is still considerable latitude to choose various tactics.
But when I talk about something being reasonable, I'm speaking strictly in the narrow sense of something that a "...reasonable, prudent person would construe..." to be reasonable in determining whether use of deadly force could be legally justified.
The problem is that the concept of 'reasonable' is NOT strictly constrained to being applicable only to legal justification. Tactics can also be reasonable or unreasonable and a person's decision to resort to a particular tactic may be reasonable or unreasonable independent of the presence or absence of legal justification.
...where does the robber cross the line where deadly force is a legally reasonable alternative, and therefore legally justified?
Armed robbery, in and of itself, is generally sufficient justification for the use of deadly force in self-defense. That's why your comments are somewhat confusing. This thread is about reasonable tactics/strategy in situation where deadly force is already justified.
Only if you believe that legal justification and the selection of tactics are separate and distinct issues.
Think of it like this. In sports, there is a playing field and there are rules. Players are constrained in various ways by the boundaries of the playing field and by the rules. Those boundaries and rules are like laws. Within the boundaries of the playing field and the rules of the game, legal justification exists.

Does that mean that the rules and boundaries are the same thing as the tactics of the game? No, the boundaries and rules place outside limits on the activities of the game, but there is still a wide range of latitude for choosing reasonable tactics without bumping up against the limits of the playing field or the rules.

Imagine the frustration and confusion that would be generated if, during a discussion of the tactics of winning a game, one discussion participant one kept interjecting that the players can't go out of bounds even though no one was suggesting that they should, implying that if the players stay in bounds and don't break the rules then there's really only one tactic that makes sense, claiming that the word 'reasonable' could only apply to staying within rules and boundaries but not to the tactics employed within those rules and boundaries, etc.
 
So this thread has sorta waffled between scenario "gaming" and legal advice and honestly is very tough to read as a result. One observation I will make is it seems that the presumption is gun out = rounds fired. While the whole "don't draw unless you need to shoot" Tuco-style advice is generally accepted it adds another dimension to this discussion. Without nitpicking made up scenarios too much, if in a situation where questionable things are happening but not at the "oh $^@* gotta shoot now" level, would it not be prudent to simply draw if given the opportunity? In the simple bank example (again ignoring how bystander divined what was in a note, presence of security monitors or others, etc) if the sketchy looking guy standing in front of the nervous looking teller is not focused immediatley on the bystander, would it not be prudent to consider just drawing? This puts the "losing against a drawn gun" squarely back on the other party and could be a means to deescalate without a fluid draw and shoot when time to think was at a premium? Brandishing charges in a misunderstanding are certainly something to keep in mind.
 
Agreed...goes toward who general assessment of the situation. All other things being equal if I was in a situation where I might have to shoot I would rather have gun in hand and not have to draw from concealment.
 
Without nitpicking made up scenarios too much, if in a situation where questionable things are happening but not at the "oh $^@* gotta shoot now" level, would it not be prudent to simply draw if given the opportunity? In the simple bank example (again ignoring how bystander divined what was in a note, presence of security monitors or others, etc) if the sketchy looking guy standing in front of the nervous looking teller is not focused immediatley on the bystander, would it not be prudent to consider just drawing? This puts the "losing against a drawn gun" squarely back on the other party and could be a means to deescalate without a fluid draw and shoot when time to think was at a premium? Brandishing charges in a misunderstanding are certainly something to keep in mind.

I'm not saying that drawing when you can is necessarily a bad thing. In many situations it would be great to have that opportunity. But I hardly see it as a means to de-escalate the situation. You might improve your odds of success, but in doing so you've also increased the likelihood of a gunfight. At least IMO.
 
if in a situation where questionable things are happening but not at the "oh $^@* gotta shoot now" level, would it not be prudent to simply draw if given the opportunity? In the simple bank example (again ignoring how bystander divined what was in a note, presence of security monitors or others, etc) if the sketchy looking guy standing in front of the nervous looking teller is not focused immediatley on the bystander, would it not be prudent to consider just drawing? This puts the "losing against a drawn gun" squarely back on the other party and could be a means to deescalate without a fluid draw and shoot when time to think was at a premium? Brandishing charges in a misunderstanding are certainly something to keep in mind.
NO! "Questionable things" do not justify the display of a firearm. An d forget the ideas of "brandishishing charge in a misunderstanding". It soul b a matter of aggravated assault.
 
Without nitpicking made up scenarios too much, if in a situation where questionable things are happening but not at the "oh $^@* gotta shoot now" level, would it not be prudent to simply draw if given the opportunity?
It's important to understand that not only can taking a particular action make other actions/options more available to you but that it can also take existing options off the table.

For example, once you draw, you're no longer going to be able to pass as just another bystander if the perpetrator glances in your direction. Your option to remain unnoticed is now off the table if anyone looks your way and you're standing there with a drawn gun.

It's not just the perpetrator you need to worry about. What will the reactions of others present be? Will they be constructive? Problematic? Dangerous to you or to themselves?
 
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