I recently took Stage I Shotgun with Scott Reitz and Louis Awerbuck at Scott's range in Los Angeles.
Gordon was a classmate and also posted his review of the same course here.
I thought I'd post an my impression of the training just to provide another perspective on what I feel are two qualified instructors.
Please keep in mind that I am relaying my IMPRESSION of the class. I am not speaking for the other students or instructors, even when I am trying to quote them. My notes may be clouded or colored by fatigue, miscommunication and my own novice status as a shotgun shooter—I've fired less than 1200 shotgun rounds in my life (this course included). I have some experience, including several mid-level training courses, with a handgun. I also have a little informal experience with rifles.
Safety
Safety was constantly stressed and was the foremost concern on the instructor's minds. We were never asked to do something I felt was unsafe and all new drills were explained and demonstrated until everyone was confident in moving forward.
Every day began with a review of the 4 rules of gun safety. We were told anyone could call a “cease fire†at anytime if we felt there was an unsafe condition. Scott told us that he was the most dangerous person on the range because he handled weapons the most and was most likely to get complacent. He reminded us to be switched on every time we handled a weapon. His personal method of switching on is to use the chamber check, done every time he takes possession of a weapon, as a reminder.
The line was always cleared properly, with individual shooters placing their weapons on safe and properly slinging them, before anyone moved off it. Between exercises the weapons were stored pointed in a safe direction with their actions open.
Students and their Equipment
Of the eighteen students, there was one lefty, one female, one Marine and three LEOs. Five or six of us had taken a previous class with Scott or Louie.
Most of us shot a 870. I believe one of these was a left-handed model. The Marine brought his unit's Benelli and two other's had Benellis. One of the LEOs had a Mossberg 590 with factory ghost sights and standard capacity mag. Everyone except three had fixed lights on their weapons.
During the weekend, 3 light bulbs broke, a set of brand new Duracell CR123’s were mashed by recoil and 2 guns went down (not counting those that were easily repaired and put back in action). There were numerous little problems that were fixed by cleaning, tightening or riggers tape. One of the Benelli user’s thought he had a misfeed problem that was solved by slathering lube on the weapon.
We fired about 250 rounds of birdshot, 50 buck, 75 slugs and 10 handgun rounds.
I was using a 870 Magnum Express with rifle sights, standard stock, CQB Solutions SOP sling, and mounted Surefire fore end. Shells were fed from a standard belt pouch. All the techniques I practiced were from the POV of a right handed 870 shooter.
Recommended Equipment
Louis feels the NECESSARY mods for a shotgun are: 1) Properly sized stock; 2) Sling; 3) Fixed white light; 4) Extended magazine follower (if you have an extended magazine).
Stock – The stock should be 13-13.5 inch long. A "cadet" or "youth" stock is ok for most shooters. In a properly sized shotgun stock, the 2nd knuckle of your trigger finger should reach the trigger if the shotgun butt pad is resting in the crook of your elbow. The angle of the stock's butt will help determine how it mounts. It’s hard to go with too short of a stock, but one student felt his was about an inch too short. The student said this wasn’t a problem mounting or shooting the weapon, it just gave him less leverage when holding the weapon for loading.
Sling – The sling type not too important, but as with most things on your weapon, plain and simple is the best. Make sure all loose ends of your sling are tucked/taped as they can jam in the slide and prevent functioning (this did happen to one shooter during the class). While GG & G makes a good single point sling attachment, a single point lets the shotgun swing too much. It becomes too heavy and is uncomfortable after a while.
Lights – Pump guns MUST have a fixed white light. Any light (an Eveready duct taped to your stock) is better than nothing. Your light will activate/deactivate at inopportune times as your hands slip on or off the fore end. Several students said they preferred the toggle on/off switch on their fore ends as the deactivation of the ribbon switch bothered them. I didn’t find this a problem with the limited experience I had. Lights frequently point under the weapons actual point of aim. Under stress, the shooter will "aim" (and miss) the weapon with the light. Lighting up a poorly lit target with bright light makes the target look closer than it is. Keep spare batteries on the weapon – duct taped to the stock or in a stock pouch. Semi Autos are very sensitive to things hanging off them. Be sure to test thoroughly as sidesaddles, brackets, and even permanently mounted lights may cause binding and malfunctions.
Extended Magazine Tubes – Their real purpose is not to load massive amounts of ammo, but to load to capacity minus 1 round. This allows you room to load an alternative type of ammo (less than lethal, slugs, or whatever) on demand, UNLESS you know you are going into a fight in which case you would load to capacity.
If you are using a two piece extended mag tube such as Remington's, the middle nut needs to be tightened first, then the tube is installed. Good brands for extended mags: Remington, Robar. Not recommended: Scattergun's.
Extended mags require the proper mag follower. An extended mag follower prevents binding of the spring at the barrel lock nuts. Scattergun, Wilson and Choate are all good brands.
Plastic followers are preferred as a stainless follower may score the inside of the magazine. Be sure you don't mix an extended mag follower into a standard size mag. This, especially when combined with S&B ammo, will prevent loading to full capacity.
Make sure your extended mag has a QUALITY extended mag spring – Robar, Wilson and Advent are all good brands. Louis has not seen any issues with "spring set" and does not believe its something to be concerned with.
Other Equip Recommendations:
Ammo – Different brands of ammo function completely differently in different barrels. You must pattern each brand of ammo to each barrel. Because Sellior & Belliot shells are slightly longer than other brands, you may have to download by one if you use S&B. 3†shells are not necessary, 2 ¾ will hurt plenty if you get shot with them.
If your shotgun is stored in a common squad or equipment room, and you don't draw the same weapon every day, pattern each weapon and note the characteristics of the pattern on the stock. For example: "using X ammo, 18" max group out to Y yards."
Reduced Recoil Loads – These haven't been out long enough with enough data collected for Louis to make a determination on performance. He has seen inconsistency between guns. They really aren't necessary, as managing the recoil of full power loads can be learned.
Sidesaddle / Butt pouch – These are a good idea as you will probably not have an opportunity to go back for resupply if you move away from your vehicle/home/base. You'll end up fighting with whatever you have with you. Scott keeps both a Sidesaddle and butt pouch on his weapon. When using the Sidesaddle, store the ammo brass up. This is the quickest and most secure method.
During the weekend, lots of people were loading from their belt pouches and ignoring their full Sidesaddles. Scott says, quickly load from the Sidesaddle, then top off the saddle from your extra stash as you have time.
Sights – Scattergun and Wilson glue their sights on. They are good sights, but will fall off. Have them silver soldered on.
Ghost Ring Sights work well. The Williams Ghost ring sights are fragile, made of aluminum with tiny screws and not much bearing surface. You need steel. Bead sights are ok if your eyes are good enough to pick them up. They are somewhat fragile if mounted directly to the barrel and impossible to adjust windage on. Glass optics haven't been used long enough to make determination regarding long time reliability. If you use them, make sure they are quick release in case of failure.
If you need tritium sights, you need a white light. Be aware that the tritium dots are lower than the top flat of the sights, so your point of aim will be different when using the sights at night.
Unnecessary Mods – Trigger jobs (not for shotguns), oversized safety buttons (unless you wear winter gloves), optics (in most cases), Van Comps (these are well manufactured, but, they won't allow you to use less lethal loads and aren't really necessary – with the proper stance, your weapon won't move to much anyway).
Speedfeed stocks don't work too well. Louis finds that there is always one shell that gets jammed in there.
Louis stressed he was not knocking manufactures such as Van or others, just stating what he had learned.
Techniques
Stance – You thumb should be on top of the stock, not wrapped around it. I had problems all weekend doing this as its not the way I've been shooting all my life. Acquire a good cheek weld to the stock. The butt is held very firmly against the shoulder. Rear leg should be straight, to give you a firm base. Lean in on your front leg with a good aggressive fighting stance. The recoil should flow down your body and should not feel like a whack, but rather a firm "push" of the shotgun butt against your shoulder.
Chamber check – Checking the chamber should be your mental signpost to "switch on." You've a dangerous weapon – treat it as such. Pull slide back slightly. Insert your finger into the chamber. Feel for a shell.
Magazine check – Insert your finger into the magazine. Feel for the follower or shell. Do this frequently when shooting and after every chamber check.
Loading – Maintain your firing hand's grip on the weapon. Slide the stock well under your armpit and use your upper arm to firmly clamp the stock to the side of your body.
Place the ammo in your weak side palm, brass to pinky. Reach up and find the trigger guard, slide the hand forward from the guard until you find the magazine port. Push the ammo all the way in.
If you don't push the ammo all the way in till it catches, it will pop out and be loose in the receiver but above the shell lifter. You'll think you are f**ked, but here's the fix: Keep a finger on the slide release and the barrel pointed in a safe direction. Slam the butt against a hard surface, racking the slide as you do.
Keep a round chambered. Put a round in the chamber as soon as you put one in the weapon. Many people will load the mag full and leave the chamber empty till they are done completely loading. When shooting, rack the slide immediately after firing. Several students were trap or skeet shooters and had to be retrained to run the bolt after each shot, as their sport teaches them this is not acceptable practice. There might be other issues with students who do a lot of sport shooting and have ingrained habits that are unsound or even unsafe in tactical/social/practical applications.
When you are switching ammo (from shot to slug to less-than to whatever) don't unchamber a round till you have the new one in the magazine (or in your hand if you are preparing to side load).
Side loading – When the magazine is dry, and you're sure it's dry, you can fire your round, rack the slide back, and drop a round into the open chamber port. Then close the slide and fire. This method also is used when you want to change your ammo type in the chamber.
Side loading saves you half a stroke's time (about 2/5ths of a second), but occasionally the shell lifter may be up when you try to load, blocking access thru the side port. To fix, reach through the port and press it down.
I wasn't sure if Louis was referring to novices only, or everyone, but he did say why choose a method of loading (using the side port) that will save you 2/5ths of a second but may mess you up 5% of the time when you can choose a method (consistently loading through the bottom port directly into the mag) that is only 2/5ths of a second slower but much more reliable.
Louis said to use one loading method until you are competent. Under stress you will mess it up if you have too many different methods of loading. After fumbling around for half a day attempting to side load, I switched to loading all rounds into the mag and racking the slide to chamber.
Load from the Sidesaddle/Butt pouch – On the line, many guys were loading from their belt pouches. Scott says load from the sidesaddle/butt pouch. Use the belt pouch to top up the sidesaddle/butt pouch.
Downloading – Put weapon on safe (thumb moves UNDER the trigger guard to access the safety – remember, I’m a right-handed 870 shooter). Rest the stock's butt on your strong side leg. Move your support hand pinky to the front of the receiver. Use your support hand to pull the slide back till your pinky touches the receiver.
Cant the weapon to drop the previously chambered round outside the port into the firing hand. Continue to pull the slide back and the next round from the magazine will eject. With the slide fully retracted, press the shell holder on the inside right of the receiver and the next round will pop out. Continue till the mag is unloaded. Feel the chamber and the magazine follower to ensure you are completely unloaded.
Follow thru – This is the least developed skill in shotgun shooting, and is very important. People want instant gratification so they raise their heads to see the target while the projectile is still in the barrel. Stay on target, prepare for the next shot (work the slide, adjust grip/stance, reacquire the target in the sights,) then check the target to see if another shot is needed.
Transitions to handgun – Most are done because of restricted space, not cuz of malfunction or running dry.
Body size – Men & women all measure about 9" nipple to nipple. All men are about 18" shoulder to waist, women 4-5" less. Thus, the target size of all men is about the same. Tall folk are usually tall in the legs, not the trunk. Amazingly, your foot is the same size as your forearm.
Use your front sight blade as indexing system. How much of the target's width is it covering? This is your clue regarding the distance to an unknown target.
Gordon was a classmate and also posted his review of the same course here.
I thought I'd post an my impression of the training just to provide another perspective on what I feel are two qualified instructors.
Please keep in mind that I am relaying my IMPRESSION of the class. I am not speaking for the other students or instructors, even when I am trying to quote them. My notes may be clouded or colored by fatigue, miscommunication and my own novice status as a shotgun shooter—I've fired less than 1200 shotgun rounds in my life (this course included). I have some experience, including several mid-level training courses, with a handgun. I also have a little informal experience with rifles.
Safety
Safety was constantly stressed and was the foremost concern on the instructor's minds. We were never asked to do something I felt was unsafe and all new drills were explained and demonstrated until everyone was confident in moving forward.
Every day began with a review of the 4 rules of gun safety. We were told anyone could call a “cease fire†at anytime if we felt there was an unsafe condition. Scott told us that he was the most dangerous person on the range because he handled weapons the most and was most likely to get complacent. He reminded us to be switched on every time we handled a weapon. His personal method of switching on is to use the chamber check, done every time he takes possession of a weapon, as a reminder.
The line was always cleared properly, with individual shooters placing their weapons on safe and properly slinging them, before anyone moved off it. Between exercises the weapons were stored pointed in a safe direction with their actions open.
Students and their Equipment
Of the eighteen students, there was one lefty, one female, one Marine and three LEOs. Five or six of us had taken a previous class with Scott or Louie.
Most of us shot a 870. I believe one of these was a left-handed model. The Marine brought his unit's Benelli and two other's had Benellis. One of the LEOs had a Mossberg 590 with factory ghost sights and standard capacity mag. Everyone except three had fixed lights on their weapons.
During the weekend, 3 light bulbs broke, a set of brand new Duracell CR123’s were mashed by recoil and 2 guns went down (not counting those that were easily repaired and put back in action). There were numerous little problems that were fixed by cleaning, tightening or riggers tape. One of the Benelli user’s thought he had a misfeed problem that was solved by slathering lube on the weapon.
We fired about 250 rounds of birdshot, 50 buck, 75 slugs and 10 handgun rounds.
I was using a 870 Magnum Express with rifle sights, standard stock, CQB Solutions SOP sling, and mounted Surefire fore end. Shells were fed from a standard belt pouch. All the techniques I practiced were from the POV of a right handed 870 shooter.
Recommended Equipment
Louis feels the NECESSARY mods for a shotgun are: 1) Properly sized stock; 2) Sling; 3) Fixed white light; 4) Extended magazine follower (if you have an extended magazine).
Stock – The stock should be 13-13.5 inch long. A "cadet" or "youth" stock is ok for most shooters. In a properly sized shotgun stock, the 2nd knuckle of your trigger finger should reach the trigger if the shotgun butt pad is resting in the crook of your elbow. The angle of the stock's butt will help determine how it mounts. It’s hard to go with too short of a stock, but one student felt his was about an inch too short. The student said this wasn’t a problem mounting or shooting the weapon, it just gave him less leverage when holding the weapon for loading.
Sling – The sling type not too important, but as with most things on your weapon, plain and simple is the best. Make sure all loose ends of your sling are tucked/taped as they can jam in the slide and prevent functioning (this did happen to one shooter during the class). While GG & G makes a good single point sling attachment, a single point lets the shotgun swing too much. It becomes too heavy and is uncomfortable after a while.
Lights – Pump guns MUST have a fixed white light. Any light (an Eveready duct taped to your stock) is better than nothing. Your light will activate/deactivate at inopportune times as your hands slip on or off the fore end. Several students said they preferred the toggle on/off switch on their fore ends as the deactivation of the ribbon switch bothered them. I didn’t find this a problem with the limited experience I had. Lights frequently point under the weapons actual point of aim. Under stress, the shooter will "aim" (and miss) the weapon with the light. Lighting up a poorly lit target with bright light makes the target look closer than it is. Keep spare batteries on the weapon – duct taped to the stock or in a stock pouch. Semi Autos are very sensitive to things hanging off them. Be sure to test thoroughly as sidesaddles, brackets, and even permanently mounted lights may cause binding and malfunctions.
Extended Magazine Tubes – Their real purpose is not to load massive amounts of ammo, but to load to capacity minus 1 round. This allows you room to load an alternative type of ammo (less than lethal, slugs, or whatever) on demand, UNLESS you know you are going into a fight in which case you would load to capacity.
If you are using a two piece extended mag tube such as Remington's, the middle nut needs to be tightened first, then the tube is installed. Good brands for extended mags: Remington, Robar. Not recommended: Scattergun's.
Extended mags require the proper mag follower. An extended mag follower prevents binding of the spring at the barrel lock nuts. Scattergun, Wilson and Choate are all good brands.
Plastic followers are preferred as a stainless follower may score the inside of the magazine. Be sure you don't mix an extended mag follower into a standard size mag. This, especially when combined with S&B ammo, will prevent loading to full capacity.
Make sure your extended mag has a QUALITY extended mag spring – Robar, Wilson and Advent are all good brands. Louis has not seen any issues with "spring set" and does not believe its something to be concerned with.
Other Equip Recommendations:
Ammo – Different brands of ammo function completely differently in different barrels. You must pattern each brand of ammo to each barrel. Because Sellior & Belliot shells are slightly longer than other brands, you may have to download by one if you use S&B. 3†shells are not necessary, 2 ¾ will hurt plenty if you get shot with them.
If your shotgun is stored in a common squad or equipment room, and you don't draw the same weapon every day, pattern each weapon and note the characteristics of the pattern on the stock. For example: "using X ammo, 18" max group out to Y yards."
Reduced Recoil Loads – These haven't been out long enough with enough data collected for Louis to make a determination on performance. He has seen inconsistency between guns. They really aren't necessary, as managing the recoil of full power loads can be learned.
Sidesaddle / Butt pouch – These are a good idea as you will probably not have an opportunity to go back for resupply if you move away from your vehicle/home/base. You'll end up fighting with whatever you have with you. Scott keeps both a Sidesaddle and butt pouch on his weapon. When using the Sidesaddle, store the ammo brass up. This is the quickest and most secure method.
During the weekend, lots of people were loading from their belt pouches and ignoring their full Sidesaddles. Scott says, quickly load from the Sidesaddle, then top off the saddle from your extra stash as you have time.
Sights – Scattergun and Wilson glue their sights on. They are good sights, but will fall off. Have them silver soldered on.
Ghost Ring Sights work well. The Williams Ghost ring sights are fragile, made of aluminum with tiny screws and not much bearing surface. You need steel. Bead sights are ok if your eyes are good enough to pick them up. They are somewhat fragile if mounted directly to the barrel and impossible to adjust windage on. Glass optics haven't been used long enough to make determination regarding long time reliability. If you use them, make sure they are quick release in case of failure.
If you need tritium sights, you need a white light. Be aware that the tritium dots are lower than the top flat of the sights, so your point of aim will be different when using the sights at night.
Unnecessary Mods – Trigger jobs (not for shotguns), oversized safety buttons (unless you wear winter gloves), optics (in most cases), Van Comps (these are well manufactured, but, they won't allow you to use less lethal loads and aren't really necessary – with the proper stance, your weapon won't move to much anyway).
Speedfeed stocks don't work too well. Louis finds that there is always one shell that gets jammed in there.
Louis stressed he was not knocking manufactures such as Van or others, just stating what he had learned.
Techniques
Stance – You thumb should be on top of the stock, not wrapped around it. I had problems all weekend doing this as its not the way I've been shooting all my life. Acquire a good cheek weld to the stock. The butt is held very firmly against the shoulder. Rear leg should be straight, to give you a firm base. Lean in on your front leg with a good aggressive fighting stance. The recoil should flow down your body and should not feel like a whack, but rather a firm "push" of the shotgun butt against your shoulder.
Chamber check – Checking the chamber should be your mental signpost to "switch on." You've a dangerous weapon – treat it as such. Pull slide back slightly. Insert your finger into the chamber. Feel for a shell.
Magazine check – Insert your finger into the magazine. Feel for the follower or shell. Do this frequently when shooting and after every chamber check.
Loading – Maintain your firing hand's grip on the weapon. Slide the stock well under your armpit and use your upper arm to firmly clamp the stock to the side of your body.
Place the ammo in your weak side palm, brass to pinky. Reach up and find the trigger guard, slide the hand forward from the guard until you find the magazine port. Push the ammo all the way in.
If you don't push the ammo all the way in till it catches, it will pop out and be loose in the receiver but above the shell lifter. You'll think you are f**ked, but here's the fix: Keep a finger on the slide release and the barrel pointed in a safe direction. Slam the butt against a hard surface, racking the slide as you do.
Keep a round chambered. Put a round in the chamber as soon as you put one in the weapon. Many people will load the mag full and leave the chamber empty till they are done completely loading. When shooting, rack the slide immediately after firing. Several students were trap or skeet shooters and had to be retrained to run the bolt after each shot, as their sport teaches them this is not acceptable practice. There might be other issues with students who do a lot of sport shooting and have ingrained habits that are unsound or even unsafe in tactical/social/practical applications.
When you are switching ammo (from shot to slug to less-than to whatever) don't unchamber a round till you have the new one in the magazine (or in your hand if you are preparing to side load).
Side loading – When the magazine is dry, and you're sure it's dry, you can fire your round, rack the slide back, and drop a round into the open chamber port. Then close the slide and fire. This method also is used when you want to change your ammo type in the chamber.
Side loading saves you half a stroke's time (about 2/5ths of a second), but occasionally the shell lifter may be up when you try to load, blocking access thru the side port. To fix, reach through the port and press it down.
I wasn't sure if Louis was referring to novices only, or everyone, but he did say why choose a method of loading (using the side port) that will save you 2/5ths of a second but may mess you up 5% of the time when you can choose a method (consistently loading through the bottom port directly into the mag) that is only 2/5ths of a second slower but much more reliable.
Louis said to use one loading method until you are competent. Under stress you will mess it up if you have too many different methods of loading. After fumbling around for half a day attempting to side load, I switched to loading all rounds into the mag and racking the slide to chamber.
Load from the Sidesaddle/Butt pouch – On the line, many guys were loading from their belt pouches. Scott says load from the sidesaddle/butt pouch. Use the belt pouch to top up the sidesaddle/butt pouch.
Downloading – Put weapon on safe (thumb moves UNDER the trigger guard to access the safety – remember, I’m a right-handed 870 shooter). Rest the stock's butt on your strong side leg. Move your support hand pinky to the front of the receiver. Use your support hand to pull the slide back till your pinky touches the receiver.
Cant the weapon to drop the previously chambered round outside the port into the firing hand. Continue to pull the slide back and the next round from the magazine will eject. With the slide fully retracted, press the shell holder on the inside right of the receiver and the next round will pop out. Continue till the mag is unloaded. Feel the chamber and the magazine follower to ensure you are completely unloaded.
Follow thru – This is the least developed skill in shotgun shooting, and is very important. People want instant gratification so they raise their heads to see the target while the projectile is still in the barrel. Stay on target, prepare for the next shot (work the slide, adjust grip/stance, reacquire the target in the sights,) then check the target to see if another shot is needed.
Transitions to handgun – Most are done because of restricted space, not cuz of malfunction or running dry.
Body size – Men & women all measure about 9" nipple to nipple. All men are about 18" shoulder to waist, women 4-5" less. Thus, the target size of all men is about the same. Tall folk are usually tall in the legs, not the trunk. Amazingly, your foot is the same size as your forearm.
Use your front sight blade as indexing system. How much of the target's width is it covering? This is your clue regarding the distance to an unknown target.