Revolver, Glock and recoil anticipation questions.

[FullEffect1911]

As it turns out after a couple thousand rounds out of my Glock 17, I have an issue anticipating recoil. I know this is a mental issue and not the gun but it requires much more effort on my part to not flinch and make good hits. That isn't really a problem until I start comparing it to my GP100.

With the GP100 shooting double action (or single) I don't have any flinch at all. And I can shoot it faster, more accurately and with less effort then the G17. If I'm honest I would have preferred that to be the other way around. It turns out I also have a a flinch with 1911 styles as well, but not as severe as the G17. I'm not a small guy and the Glock grip "feels" good, but it isn't proving that to me in my groups at speed. For the record I am 6'3" with an extra large glove size. Power factor between the G17 and Gp100 is 130,000 and 115,000 respectively, so the GP100 does have less actual recoil due to weight and PF.

I would like to just get rid of the recoil anticipation and carry on with the Glock, but I would also like to figure out what is going on. Has anyone else experienced something like this? Is there a suggestion for a semi auto pistol that may replicate what is working for me with the GP100? Is it that longer double action trigger pull that is getting me to achieve a surprise break? I would love to hear some suggestions and opinions on what could be the cause of this.

By the way I have been working on getting rid of the flinch, from lot of dryfire, ball and dummy drills, compressed surprise trigger break, rounds down range, grip, stance, front sight focus, etc. but I just can't seem to break the habit with the G17.

 

[jad0110]

Is it that longer double action trigger pull that is getting me to achieve a surprise break? I would love to hear some suggestions and opinions on what could be the cause of this.

I think you are probably right. I am in the same boat as you. With 1911s in particular, I have to actively fight the temptation to snatch the short, light trigger while chasing the "perfect" sight picture. Additionally, in rapid fire I am used to maintaining a steady trigger squeeze and release speed on a DA trigger all the way through the firing sequence (I keep the trigger running at an even, steady pace), and can achieve good speed and accuracy. However, with a 1911 (or Glock or XD), I can't find a good shooting rhythm. That brief pause in the motion of my trigger finger while waiting for the slide to catch up often leads to a jerked trigger on the next shot. I don't worry about it much, I shoot revolvers better so that's what I rely on for protection. To each his own.

You might consider something along the lines of a CZ-75 with either a DAO trigger, but those models can be difficult to find. You could have a DA/SA model modified to shooting DAO, and have the trigger smoothed up while you are at it (CZ-75s tend to be gritty out of the box, I know mine is). I know Sigs have a number of models with DAO triggers, but I'm not familiar with them.

 

[2ndAmFan]

You might try loading a snap cap or two in the Glock mag. Even better, have someone else load the mag so you don't know when a snap cap is coming up next. I cured myself of flinching with a revolver years ago by loading an empty shell or two in the cylinder, giving it a spin so I didn't know which were empty shells and which were going to fire. I figure snap caps would fulfill the same function. Also, always remember the felt recoil comes after you fire the weapon, not before. Mindset. Hope this helps.

 

[eldon519]

I used to shoot primarily semi-automatic pistols, and in the past few years, I have switched to revolvers primarily. I was a good shot with a semi-auto and generally had nice groups. Since it's been so long, sometimes when I go back to shooting semi-autos for the first few magazines, I'm startled that the gun moves in my hand (ie the slide cycles). It's a much more dynamic recoil impulse and a bit longer in duration since you feel the slide hit the frame. The revolver is just a sudden impulse and then nothing. I always felt like I had to focus more on "follow through" with the semi-auto. That doesn't help you solve the problem, but maybe you can relate?

The three pieces of advice I have are:
1) shoot more often
2) dry fire A LOT
3) try loading up that GP100 with full-power .357s (these should have a significantly higher power factor than 9mm, not to mention more blast) until you get used to them. Then maybe the 9mm will not seem so bad. I have a 3" SP101 which I shoot mainly with full-power H110 reloads. I was having trouble with flinching, mostly after the shot, but still a little embarrassing. I broke out my Ruger .45 Colt which I also shoot mainly with full-power H110 reloads, and next thing you know, the SP101 didn't seem bad anymore.

 

[MrBorland]

to not flinch and make good hits

This could be a source of the trouble - concerning yourself with making good hits is to think about the goal, not the process.

Shoot your G17 into a berm. No target, no expectations of a good shot. Focus on the process of breaking the shot well, i.e. sight picture & trigger press.

 

[1911Tuner]

"Pushing" the gun is something that I've had to battle my whole life. It's more of a cadence thing than actively anticipating the recoil...which bothers me not a bit...and I have to concentrate on it in order to keep from throwing my initial shot low. For all others, it's a non-issue because it's part of the process of bringing the gun back down out of recoil and lining up the next shot. That first one, though...it can cause some problems for me.

My method of breaking the pattern is to engage in a little slow-fire Bullseye style shooting before I start my usual practice. It works for me. It may work for you.

 

[wlewisiii]

NY1 spring and 3.5 lb connector. That's what I put in my Glock 19. It's still slightly light but it duplicates a DA revolver pull close enough that I can shoot it as if it were a S&W Model 10. Much better trigger pull than the stock monstrosity.

 

[jad0110]

Since it's been so long, sometimes when I go back to shooting semi-autos for the first few magazines, I'm startled that the gun moves in my hand (ie the slide cycles). It's a much more dynamic recoil impulse and a bit longer in duration since you feel the slide hit the frame. The revolver is just a sudden impulse and then nothing. I always felt like I had to focus more on "follow through" with the semi-auto. That doesn't help you solve the problem, but maybe you can relate?

Interesting point; I can relate. I've not actually thought about it in a while, but that is a big reason why I personally don't care for polymer frame autos because the feeling you describe is, to my hand, significantly more noticeable in them vs a steel frame auto.

 

[psyopspec]

At odd times now and then I've developed a flinch in my shooting too - usually when moving up to a caliber more powerful than I typically fire, or testing defensive .357 loads in my S&W 340. You're already doing a lot of the right things to help train yourself out of it, but I stumbled onto something else a couple years ago.

All of us have different backgrounds in our shooting career. For me, I grew up in a household where long guns for hunting were the only ones under the roof. About 10 years ago I came back from my first deployment and started getting into pistols. I started with a 1911, and have owned various handguns in 9mm or above since then. Eventually I became somewhat handy with a pistol, but I believe this was in spite of, not because of my starting with a larger caliber. As time's gone on, I've also introduced others to shooting. To make that first range trip more appealing for new shooters who were recoil sensitive, I bought a Ruger MK III last year. It wasn't until then, a decade in to shooting pistols, that I realized what I've been missing. That .22 pistol is a lot of fun, and cheap to shoot!

Incidentally, I've also used it as a "back to basics" pistol. If something is off at the range, to include if I'm flinching, I'll reach for the .22, take a deep breath, and walk step by step through the fundamentals. Removing the recoil from the equation eliminates the distraction from the mind, which as you said is where it resides. After a few minutes my groups inevitably tighten up and I go back to whatever I was there to shoot that day, with improved results. That smaller gun requires the same fundamentals of marksmanship to be proficient as any other hand gun. It re-centers me. Might work for you too; if nothing else, I hope I've just given you an excuse to buy an immensely enjoyable pistol.

 

[jackpinesavages]

Dude, nice steel!

Shoot me a PM.

 

[FullEffect1911]

All good advice so far, I had thought about putting in some bullseye shots at the start of my range sessions. I also have a mark III 22/45 that I shoot, but not when I need to refocus/recenter myself. I am also going to try some .357 magnums through the gp100 to remind my brain that the 9mm really isn't worth flinching over.

I do currently have a NY1 trigger spring and "-" glock connector. An improvement over the stock trigger in my opinion.

I will also read over this thread a couple more times to try and drill this stuff into my head. Thanks for the advice! I'll see if I can't put it to good use.

 

[kb58]

I have much the same problem - I think. I could "drive tacks" with my HK Elite (6" barrel, .45 caliber. I sold that and got what just had to be better... an HK45. How's that saying go, "I can't hit the side of a barn even when I'm in it?" My brother had the same experience with it so we don't know if there's a problem with it or us. So I hung around the next steel match at our range and explained the situation to one of the best shooters there, offering him the pistol with a plea, "show me." So he goes "blam, blam, blam, blam" and I hear "plink, plink, plink, plink." Sigh...

What I'm thinking would be a great training tool is a rail-mounted green laser (so it can be seen outdoors.) With that on, I'd expect it would vividly show exactly what's going on, that (probably) I'm pulling the shots due to the anticipated recoil. While I see cheaper laser "bullets", that doesn't seem like the best way. They recommend dry-firing and seeing where the dot is when it clicks, but psychologically, since the shooter KNOWS that it's not going to fire, there's no recoil to anticipate. I really think that the green laser is the best idea; I'm just not happy about the expense.

 

[beatledog7]

I was lousy at the range today, so I can identify with the OP's plight. Was anticipating, had an inconsistent sight picture, got in a hurry...all went center of mass, but not groups to be proud of.

I attribute it to too long a layoff, lack of concentration, and shooting loads I had not shot before, so I won't worry that I suddenly can't hit anything. We all have bad days.

 

[kb58]

... so I won't worry that I suddenly can't hit anything.

Then there's people like me who've never been able to hit anything...

 

[2ndAmFan]

If you don't mind me asking kb, what are you shooting? Some guns work great for some people and others can't hit a darn thing with the same make and model.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Is there a suggestion for a semi auto pistol that may replicate what is working for me with the GP100? Is it that longer double action trigger pull that is getting me to achieve a surprise break?

The SIG DAK trigger system and the Kahr triggers feel very much like a tuned DA revolver.

As jad0110 wrote in post #2 and MrBorland wrote i post #5, I don't think it is about the blast from the round or the recoil of the slide, you're just not staying in the process

 

[FullEffect1911]

since the shooter KNOWS that it's not going to fire, there's no recoil to anticipate. I really think that the green laser is the best idea; I'm just not happy about the expense.

Any gun that I am sure is unloaded I am rock steady with in dry fire. So I agree that laser ammo may not help. I have 4 mags for my glock 17 that I load 3 with snap caps and 1 with live ammo, put them in a shooting bag and get one at random (without looking) load it up and fire.

I also like Hickok45's suggestion of loading up a full mag with some handloaded dummy rounds. And while you are shooting the mag you will run into deactivated rounds. That is one I will be trying next.

As jad0110 wrote in post #2 and MrBorland wrote i post #5, I don't think it is about the blast from the round or the recoil of the slide, you're just not staying in the process

I agree, I need to not jump on that trigger and work on my follow through. I noticed at a IDPA match yesterday I wasn't thinking about stance or grip etc. I was just focused on the process and did pretty well. The only times I was really missing (and not by much) was when I tried to run my GP100 to fast and missed low.

For me I can run a glock pretty fast, but need to learn to slow down with it when necessary.

All excellent responses so far, great discussion!

 

[kb58]

If you don't mind me asking kb, what are you shooting?

HK45 (in .45 of course.) I'm fairly determined to find out why I'm so different with this handgun while "everyone else" seems to think it's the most awesomest tack-driver ever.

At 15 yds, the impacts show "shotgunning" (shots scattered over about 10".) The only consistant pattern is that all the holes are on the left haf of the target, so that's either a clue about what I'm doing - or that the sights aren't aligned (though they are physically on the pistol.)

 

[2ndAmFan]

Could be a sight problem. Could also be a matter of ergonomics. If the gun doesn't fit your hand, it just isn't right for you. Anyone else you know shot that HK and done any better?

 

[kb58]

From post #12

So I hung around the next steel match at our range and explained the situation to one of the best shooters there, offering him the pistol with a plea, "show me." So he goes "blam, blam, blam, blam" and I hear "plink, plink, plink, plink." Sigh...

 

[9mmepiphany]

Since you're already familiar with the H&K trigger stroke and you're likely using the same grip as you are doing well with on your USP, I'd suggest you try the different backstraps

 

[BCRider]

The reason you're doing better with the GP100 in DA is because you're concentrating on the right things and not on when it's going to go BANG! A DA trigger pull on a revolver involves quite a long pull back all while holding the sight picture. It's taking your mind off the upcoming BANG! and that's why you're not flinching.

With your semis try this.... Dry fire a few times. Pull the trigger back and HOLD it back even after the trigger breaks. Rack the gun then slowly release until you feel the reset click. Reverse and pull back again to the stop and HOLD it. Then go and shoot for real. But do the same thing. Your mission is to pull the trigger back to the rear stop and HOLD it for a moment until the gun finishes recoiling. That is the job. Do not try to worry about when the gun might go off. Just smoothly build pressure on the trigger until it's at the rear travel limit and hold it there until the recoil settles then ease it off to feel the reset and then pull it back to the stop again.

By focusing on a full travel pull I've see a few with flinching issues correct it almost immediately.

If the issue persists and this trick of a "full pull and hold" doesn't fix it then my suggestion is a .22 handgun and a brick of ammo and work on this same full pull technique. When you're good with the .22 set it down and try the Glock again. If/when the flinch comes back in a few shots or a mag clear the gun, set it down and pick up the .22 again. Repeat this back and forth between guns until you master this whole Zen like detachment from worrying about when the gun is going to go off.