Desert Scorpion
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Revolver identification in Jesse James Picture
- Thread starter Desert Scorpion
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Smokin_Gun
Member
Looks like an 1860 Colt Army to me.
If not a studio prop...about I could tell, is that it is or started Life off as, an Open-Top Percussion Revolver, along the lines of a Colt, but, seeming to have some odd details, maybe a Conversion Cylinder arrangement or Shield over roughly the front half of the Cylinder..?
That area looks larger in diameter than it should for an 1860.
Yet, the Cylinder retaines the nitches of a Percussion...where...a Cartridge Conversion would have eliminated those I would think.
The diameter of the front area of the Cylinder appears to be having it's top higher than the top of the Frame and Barrel are...
...and the Frame in front of the Cylinder, is not quite co-responding to that of the 1860, nor to the prior Flat faceted Front 1851 Navy or Dragoon kinds.
The toward us side - the Revolver's Left side - the Recoil shield seems to have an odd relief, which I do not remember seeing on Colts, which had the relief ( for placing Caps onto the Nipples ) on the other side of the Revolver.
Looks like it has an ejector Rod housing, rather than a Loading Lever.
Lotta weirdness going on with that Revolver...all tolled...
I am kinda thinking it was maybe a slightly naive Studio Prop Chimera.
Or, the original Image, or some image from which this one was taken, suffered some retouching which had confused some of the details of the Revolver.
If it was an Actual functioning Revolver, I would say it has the rebated Percussion Cylinder, but having some differences from a Colt proper.
Maybe a 'Brevet' or European knock-off of something Originally Percussion and Colt-like in design, which was then converted to Metallic Cartridge...which then had a Percussion Cylinder installed...??
Lol...
That area looks larger in diameter than it should for an 1860.
Yet, the Cylinder retaines the nitches of a Percussion...where...a Cartridge Conversion would have eliminated those I would think.
The diameter of the front area of the Cylinder appears to be having it's top higher than the top of the Frame and Barrel are...
...and the Frame in front of the Cylinder, is not quite co-responding to that of the 1860, nor to the prior Flat faceted Front 1851 Navy or Dragoon kinds.
The toward us side - the Revolver's Left side - the Recoil shield seems to have an odd relief, which I do not remember seeing on Colts, which had the relief ( for placing Caps onto the Nipples ) on the other side of the Revolver.
Looks like it has an ejector Rod housing, rather than a Loading Lever.
Lotta weirdness going on with that Revolver...all tolled...
I am kinda thinking it was maybe a slightly naive Studio Prop Chimera.
Or, the original Image, or some image from which this one was taken, suffered some retouching which had confused some of the details of the Revolver.
If it was an Actual functioning Revolver, I would say it has the rebated Percussion Cylinder, but having some differences from a Colt proper.
Maybe a 'Brevet' or European knock-off of something Originally Percussion and Colt-like in design, which was then converted to Metallic Cartridge...which then had a Percussion Cylinder installed...??
Lol...
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Pancho
Member
Could that be a leather loop for some kind of abbreviated holster?
He's got it through a loop and is twisting it up for us to see that he's packing 3 guns. The picture makes much more sense seen in the right direction, by swapping the sides horizontally. It also looks like he was fiddling with it during the exposure time, because his hand is a bit more blurred than the rest of him, so I'd wager it's a trick of the light that makes the gun look weird just in front of the loop. I'd also say it's an 1860 army because it appears to have the rounded barrel and the particular notch in the frame for loading caps, unique to the army version.
If i were to make a second educated guess, i would say it's an 1860 NARMY or was that an 1860 ARVY? Can't remember... lol
If i were to make a second educated guess, i would say it's an 1860 NARMY or was that an 1860 ARVY? Can't remember... lol
The revolver is a Colt 1860 Army, most likely a battlefield capture. The picture was taken in 1864 when Jesse was a 17 year-old guerrilla, rideing with Quantrill. The picture is attributed to the Schorder Photogrphy Studio in St. Joseph, Mo.
sixshooter
Member
I would guess 1860 Army too, but the loading lever looks different to me. Of course, being an original in the photo, not an Italian reproduction might have something to do with my confusion...
Ratdog68
Member
Well...
Don't know if this'll help any... but, this is a pic of an "antique" I had the fortune to see/handle/take apart/photograph last year. The tale is the store keeper knows the family where this gun came from and has been in their family for MANY years. It's suspected to be an original of the 1861-3 era. If so... it could help with comparison against this photo. I just wish I'd've had the $1,700.00 in my pocket to spend on such a little treasure. :banghead:
Don't know if this'll help any... but, this is a pic of an "antique" I had the fortune to see/handle/take apart/photograph last year. The tale is the store keeper knows the family where this gun came from and has been in their family for MANY years. It's suspected to be an original of the 1861-3 era. If so... it could help with comparison against this photo. I just wish I'd've had the $1,700.00 in my pocket to spend on such a little treasure. :banghead:
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Looks like an 1860 percussion, you can see the cutout at the nipple. The cylinder would be rebated, whether it was percussion or a cartridge conversion.
KodiakBeer
member
A close up. Looks like an 1860 to me, but there were a number of Confederate copies of Colt guns, so it's hard to say.
The Confederate-made revolvers were for the most part, more-or-less copies of Colt's 1851 Navy. In the Missouri/Kansas border area Quantrill's men usually armed themselves with arms they found after an engagement. Given the time, place, and circumstances when and where the picture was taken, it is highly unlikely that the revolver in question was anything but an ordinary, army-issue 1860 Army Colt.
Incidentally, no one has noticed that Jesse got his picture took in St. Joe while it was supposedly under Yankee control.
Incidentally, no one has noticed that Jesse got his picture took in St. Joe while it was supposedly under Yankee control.
Ratdog68
Member
Another consideration....
Here's the other side of the revolver. Was Jesse James left, or right handed? I'm wondering if the negative got turned around for the print... m'be what we're really seeing is the mirror image of the right side of an 1860 revolver in the right hand of Jesse James?
Here's the other side of the revolver. Was Jesse James left, or right handed? I'm wondering if the negative got turned around for the print... m'be what we're really seeing is the mirror image of the right side of an 1860 revolver in the right hand of Jesse James?
Ah yes, you noticed too! Tin-types show a mirror image. Another famous example is a picture of Billy-the-Kid that has the loading port of his Winchester model 1873 carbine on the left side of the frame. His revolver is holstered on the left hip, which started the story he was left handed. Not true it seems.
Ratdog68
Member
I remember seeing that discussed on a show not too long ago... I think it was on the History Channel? I don't recall.
Makes sense! The image has been reversed.
I had no idea what year the image was made for wondering about Cartridge Conversions.
Not up on Jessie James history... ( well more up on it now, for this Thread having edified me some...)
Colt 1860 does seem the best contender then.
I had no idea what year the image was made for wondering about Cartridge Conversions.
Not up on Jessie James history... ( well more up on it now, for this Thread having edified me some...)
Colt 1860 does seem the best contender then.
Ratdog68
Member
The way you worded it... I didn't get what you were suggesting. Looks like we were on the same track of thinking though. You posted it first... credit's yours.Hmm... if someone had only pointed that out earlier... oh wait... I did.
[email protected]
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Here's the picture turned around for you all
DoubleDeuce 1
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Another clue for the photo being backwards is the eagle on his belt buckle is reversed. In the reversal of the backwards picture, correct orientation, you can see the eagle much better.
Pancho
Member
Can you even imagine a 17 year old veteran fighting for his cause now. The boy already has the 1000 yard stare.
DrLaw
Member
Prop guns
From the looks of all of them, they are prop guns used by the photographer. If you look at the background and notice that there is no background, it means that this was shot in a studio somewhere. Whether a building or not is up to question as it could have been done in a tent, but since the flash that they used in the day was a burning powder, a tent is probably not a possibility. The photo is also not as blurred as a timed exposure would be.
Since the gun shown does not seem to match anything we know of (look at where the barrel seems to meet the frame. Almost like a Starr frame), and if you look at the butts of the other guns, they do not seem to match the contours of Colts, they are most likely prop guns.
You can see the use of prop guns in a lot of photos of Indians, who seem to be carrying single shot .22 rifles, when for the most part they would have had much larger caliber guns.
Also, there is a pretty good possibility that the photo was reversed when printed. Look at that photo of Billy the Kid that got past all the experts for years, finally found to be turned around as the loading gate of the Winchester he held is on the wrong side of the frame.
At least, that's my two cents.
The Doc is out now.
From the looks of all of them, they are prop guns used by the photographer. If you look at the background and notice that there is no background, it means that this was shot in a studio somewhere. Whether a building or not is up to question as it could have been done in a tent, but since the flash that they used in the day was a burning powder, a tent is probably not a possibility. The photo is also not as blurred as a timed exposure would be.
Since the gun shown does not seem to match anything we know of (look at where the barrel seems to meet the frame. Almost like a Starr frame), and if you look at the butts of the other guns, they do not seem to match the contours of Colts, they are most likely prop guns.
You can see the use of prop guns in a lot of photos of Indians, who seem to be carrying single shot .22 rifles, when for the most part they would have had much larger caliber guns.
Also, there is a pretty good possibility that the photo was reversed when printed. Look at that photo of Billy the Kid that got past all the experts for years, finally found to be turned around as the loading gate of the Winchester he held is on the wrong side of the frame.
At least, that's my two cents.
The Doc is out now.
I highly doubt that the revolvers are props. Jesse had slipped into St. Joe at a time when it was controled by Union forces, to have his picture taken at the Schorder Photography Studio (the original is so marked on the back). If he was caught, execution would have been almost a sure thing, as he was known to be a Quantrill guerrilla, and he was not wearing any kind of Confederate uniform. Even though he was only 17 he had earned a reputation as being one who would charge hell with nothing but a cup of water. Given the circumstances it is unthinkable that he would have had to depend on the photographer for prop arms.
sixshooter
Member
I know I said 1860 Army... but that loading lever looks a heck of a lot like an 1851 Navy...
Obviously, Jesse's wasn't made by Uberti, but the loading lever looks more like the Navy than the Army to me.
Obviously, Jesse's wasn't made by Uberti, but the loading lever looks more like the Navy than the Army to me.
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