Revolvers for bear defense

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Lone Star

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Handgunners often ask, "Which is the best handgun for bear defense?"

Be advised that the new issue of, "The Rifle" has an article by an Alaskan guide who's actually shot some big bears with revolvers.
He favors an S&W M629 Mountain Gun, and his daughter carries an S&W M65 .357. Penetration from either is adequate, with careful selection,which he details. Bullet placement is naturally vital!

He advises against HP's in .44 Magnum, as one he fired into a dead bear penetrated only some six inches. He points out that that same bullet would be devastating in a deer's chest!

This issue also contains the second part of Brian Pearce's discussion of Elmer Keith's and Skeeter Skelton's sixguns and favored loads. I think Pearce is our best all-round gun writer, and those who liked Elmer and Skeeter will love the photos. Even has one of Keith's old house near Durkee, OR. Has also a pre-war S&W .357 photo.

The more I consider today's gun magazines, the more I like, "Rifle" and its sister title, "The Handloader". (This does not necessarily endorse everything that John Barsness says about optics in these publications. I think he's somewhat prejudiced against German makers, and avoids pointing out they generally have cleaner internal construction than Japanese makers, and that binocular focus mechanisms are generally smoother and more "solid" feeling on Zeiss or Leica than on Jap brands, even the best ones. Tirade over, but he galls me sometimes with this stuff...)

Lone Star
P.S. IMPORTANT: I goofed: the magazine with the articles described is the June, "Handloader". See my post below, too.
 
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Oh, and back on the subject.. I'll be out in the woods this summer, and I'll be carrying GP100 with 180gr FMJ moving plenty fast. I figure the 180gr FMJ's should provide sufficient penetration. If I had a 44 I'd probably load up some hardcast Keith lead bullets..
 
This issue has been discussed at length on TFL. The most knowledgeable poster with Keith Rogan, IIRC.

The bottom line was that handguns are iffy but he recommended some very specific loads that might be OK.
 
I made an error above. The articles described are really in, "Handloader" for June. Because it's so similar to, "Rifle" and uses the same writers, my memory failed me.

I tried to economize and skip buying a magazine that probably wouldn't say anything that I didn't already know, but went back to Border's today and bought a copy.

Yes, the topic has been discussed here and in probably every gun magazine on the market. But this guide has actually shot handgun bullets into big bears, which most scribes tackling the subject haven't. Thus, and because the topic has wide appeal, I posted here.

Lone Star
 
A nice DA 22 lr so I can knee cap the fella next to me and leave him as bear bait........:D



Somebody had to say it........:) :rolleyes:


I would carry my Taurus tracker in 45 LC loaded with 255 gr LSWC pushed by way to much 2400 powder it is only five rounds and if some "huge" Eastern PA black bear is chasing me I will not care if my Taurus shoots loose....


The Tracker is very accurate and packs like a K frame Smith
 
Well Mountain Gun .44 ,unless out hunting bear then, a .454 Super Redhawk with aimpoint. In .44 Mag I was a believer in 300XTP load but I read a thread on a PROFESSIONAL bear 'control officer' who swears that 240XTP causes the bear more instantaneous pain than any other load. He says they forget about you and 'bite at wound' with 240xtp and they don't do that with any other load as consistently. That said I have a lot of 300xtp to use up!I have only shot a couple black bear with a .44 mag. and they died like a deer.:)
 
Well, there are bears, and then there are brown bears. Around here we have plenty of the blackies, and I feel pretty darn comfortable with a .44. But if I were going camping or fishing or hiking or whatever in the brownies' turf, I'd want something bigger. Or, at the very least, some hot-loaded .44 cartridge by Garrett or the other folks who make the hot loads.
 
The guide in, "Handloader" said that a 180 grain Norma FMJ .357 killed one bear with a strike in the spine. He doesn't favor the very heavy bullets in .44, as they slow repeat shots, and they seem unnecessary for penetration.

This is a worthy article that I'm glad I read.

I know of one grizzly in a park that was mauling a game warden, who killed it with an S&W M66 and "issued" 158 grain ammo, but don't know the brand. The effective round was the last of six that he "panic shot" into the chest as he lay under the bear.

The big Kodiak browns are much bigger. A .44 HP fired into a dead bear went in only about six inches. The Keith load seems good, and other solutions are in the article. The writer is a fellow named Shoemaker, who has guided several "name" gun writers, including the late Finn Aagard.

Lone Star
 
I saw the film where the grizzly was being released, something went wrong, the ranger was on top of him instead of on top of the cage, and killed him with a 357

Full metal jacket stuff is not supposed to work with Brown bear- the jackets are too thin and the bullets deform.

Solids are the way to go- hard lead.

I would not use a Hornady 300 xtp or any controlled expansion bullet. But if that was what I had-

A 240 gr xtp might make the bear stop and bite at himself, or it might make him very angry at you. A couple anedotal events do a practise make.

Even people who've had to actually stop a bear have only their one or even several experiences to relate. They all agree the griz and brown are savage and unpredicatable.

There is a huge difference between hunting a bear with a revolver and stopping a charge. Even Smith's new 500 with 2500 fpe is less than I'd want to stop. By half.

when you are in trouble with a bear it is usually sudden- one is charging out of nowhere or a paw just reached around the bush. Many people state all you will get is one hurried shot at a blurred mass of fur.

That said, I read one writer who stated before Canadian Guides were forbidden to carry handguns many preferred the Ruger Single action in 41. Because it penetrated deep and the slightly less recoil from the 44 enabled a quicker second shot.

When I am in Griz land I carry the largest projectile weight for calibre I can. But I really have to wonder if in a crisis it will matter much if you had a 41, 45 Colt, 44, or even a 454.

Like most of you, Bear threads are interesting, I own a book on the subject and have kept many articles over the years, but have never had to deal with a bear. I did once play my harmonica for a young Black bear.

I tend to agree with those persons who have and say they will never again go into an area with Griz that does not allow them to be armed.

munk
 
I was told a story by Frank McGee (then C.O. of the NYPD Firearms Unit), about a rookie cop whose first assignment was patrol in the Bronx Zoo. The young officer knew only what he had been taught about guns in his police training. He carried a S&W model 10 with 158gr RN lead factory bullets. The young cop hears screams and runs over to the Polar Bears (BIG BEARS) and finds a mature male Polar Bear mauling a child (Pretty dumb kid if you ask me) who had crawled over (under) the bars. Not knowing that his service revolver was of little use for killing Polar Bears, he shot the bear once. DEAD, one shot, end of bear. Two morals to this (true) story: The Bronx Zoo gets really upset when anybody kills one of their bears, and don't be too surprised what factory .38sp RNL bullets can do. Quantrill
 
I live in the heart of big bear country and we have to deal with them every summer. I can't tell you how massive and powerful these animals are. I watched one place a paw on a dumpster and effortlessly push it down and grab a bag of trash. I tried to move the dumpster myself and could barely move it.
A handgun is marginal for a bear defense situation. They work fine if you can pick your shot and place the bullet where it needs to be. But with a charge you are much better off with a big bore rifle or a shotgun loaded with Brennekes.
However, that being said, if you have to rely on a revolver in .44 Mag. at least stoke it with the Garrett or Buffalo Bore loads or a similar homecooked recipe. These things are hot and nasty and can give you an edge over other off the shelf ammo.
 
stevelyn; you make a lot of sense. Hey, you may want to examine whether or not to use a line from a character Danny Glover was in a film. His work in the Lethal Weapon series of movies is less than flattering to the NRA and the right to keep and bear arms.



munk
 
Munk,

I know Danny Glover is an A-1 leftist that opens is mouth quite often and confirms for the rest of us he dosen't know anything, but it is a cool line. I am looking for another one though.
 
If I cant have a rifle or shotgun with buckshot I carry a Hi Cap 9mm...thats the one..

Face it if mr bear chages you from 20 feet away, unless you are in a tactical ready situation you aint gettin a shot off...

If he is making bluff charges 50 yards away, at least you have enough rounds to pop a few at his feet to scare him off.

You are not going to kill a charging brown bear with a handgun. Everytime I seea tourist with a 475 Linebaugh (long barrel) for bear protection, I laugh.

Now gimme a short barreled Marlin in 50 Alaskan with 450 grain kodiaks or 45/70-457 with 350 grain kodiaks and Im ready.

WildbiggunsisbetterAlaska
 
That's a pretty good article, 5pins, I mean, he says the same thing as myself so it must be good, right?

I will take a little nit pick though- he takes special attention to note the 44 special is more powerful than the .41 mag with a hand load of a 250 gr bullet at 1250fps. Since Federal makes a FACTORY load in the 41, never mind all the handloads, that does the same thing with a bullet of greater sectional density I must say; NAY


But that reminded me of what a friend used to say; if suitable guns had been available for the .44 Special there never would have been a .41 Underated cartridges both.

munk
 
Well, I don't mean to sound like a wus, but many around here--in Montana where some of the best pepper spray was developed--say that your odds are better with the spray than any long gun or handgun. The author of "Bear Attacks" and a few other researchers (real interviews with real bear encountees and real forensic investigation, not someone blowing spray up a rat's nostrils) earnestly recommend pepper spray over a firearm. Nothing's 100% but the odds seem to favor the non-lethal alternative. The side benefit is that the bear gets to live and you don't have to explain to your state FW&P why you killed a grizz. Those folks can cause you a lot of time, grief, money, and licenses. Just a thought.
Ross
 
Pepper spray better than a long gun? Baloney.

The problem with pepper spray is the effects are unpredictable. I think I've read most all bear literature around- like many here- it is such an interesting topic-

Better than a long gun??!! I'm certain many politically motivated foresters would like you to use pepper spray. Better than a dead bear.

I can see a handgun, or longun and pepper spray.

munk
 
Here is some more interesting info from Brian Pearce in the July 2002 issue.

More on Bears and Handguns

In Handloader No. 213, I wrote an article titled “Handguns for Bear Protection.†After seeing the article, a reader forwarded a most interesting story about a lady who recently stopped a grizzly charge at just a few feet with a .44 Magnum revolver.
We will refer to her as â€Ms. M.†It seems her line of work takes her to remote areas of Alaska, so she took a defensive bear safety course from Joe Nava, who has taught this class for over 40 years. Many of his 6,000 students have included state and federal employees. Apparently the class combines common sense things to do to prevent attacks, but in the event an attack occurs, students receive firearms (handgun and shotgun) training so they have a chance to survive.

Ms. M had purchased a .44 Magnum revolver and carried it in a hip holster on her right side. She practiced drawing and firing it as fast as she could and even “point and shoot in the event she did not have time to aim the gun precisely.†Practice sessions were extensive with the gun loaded and empty.
While working in a rather brushy area, with a notebook in hand, a large grizzly made a charge from the nearby brush. Ms. M dropped her notebook and began backing up as she drew her .44 Magnum and quickly fired. There was only time for one shot, and the bear fell dead between the dropped notebook and her feet. The bullet had passed through the skull of the bear.

After skinning the bear and turning the hide over to the Fish & Game Department (which is the law), Ms. M stated she believed the bear safety course saved her life. I may add that her mindset (she didn’t panic) and long practice sessions with her .44 Magnum are what really paid off.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=748&id=56
 
I'm sure you've heard this story.

To some extent none of these insures you won't have a problem. The old joke is that the Ranger tells the tourist that to avoid Grizzlies you should wear bells and use pepper spray if one attacks. Make lots of noise if your see grizzly scat, he continues, but don't worry if you see brown bear scat.

"How do you know if its grizzly or brown bear scat?", asks the tourist.

"The grizzly bear scat will have small bells in it and smell like pepper," says the ranger.

According to the link, brown bears might be attracted to pepper spray.
:what:
 
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