Rewatched "Son of Morning Star"

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I had plum forgot how great this 1991 made for tv movie was, from the weapons to the tactics to the story itself. No doubt the trooper extras were reenactors, but I couldn't determine which organization. In the Wachita campaign, circa 1868, they were using Spencer repeating carbines and Remington sidearms I believe and by the mid 1870s switched to single shot Springfield Trapdoor carbines and Colt SAAs. The cavalry trarining scenes were very cool.
 
I'll have to give it a watch it. Cyrano de Bergerac (1990) is grate for the "musket and pike" era of military tactics. Like those used in the 30 years war. The film required 2000 actors and extras, and 2000 costumes, half of which were specially designed for the film. Over 1000 weapons were required as well as 40 studio sets and outdoor locations.
 
According to one of my books, the 7th Cav. was equipped with Spencers up to one year before Little Big Horn. Technology moves forward and sometimes the Army lags behind.
 
It was my understanding the Spencers were replaced by Trapdoors in 1873. The transition may have been gradual ... but I don't think it was that gradual.
IIRC Custer didn't like the change - over to the Trapdoors at all; he and his Red Tie Boys had used Spencers against the Confederates to great effect and he appreciated the firepower it had.

The bean-counters in the governmentwere resistant to change and modern tech. The Big Brass in the army believed soldiers would waste ammo if given repeaters, and it was only President Abraham Lincoln's fondness for the new rifles like the Spencer & Henry, and his putting pressure on army procurement dweebs that caused them to buy a supply of the new rifles, but a decade later the penny pinchers regained ascendency again.....
 
No doubt there were "bean counters" in those days (there always have been and always will be), but the Army went to the trapdoor primarily because it had a lot more power, range, and accuracy than any of the repeating rifles available at that time. The Spencer had about the power of the SAA; the Henry had a lot less. In a later era, that gap between rifle and handgun would be filled by the sub-machine gun, the latter-day equivalent of the Spencer and Henry.

In many of the firefights of that era, the range and power of the trapdoor paid off, but at LBH the fighting was at close range and Spencers would have been almost ideal. Plus, the less powerful cartridges did not have the problems experienced with extraction that the .45-70 Benet primed cases did.

There is a myth that Custer was hopelessly outgunned by "Native Americans", each of whom had a brand new Winchester rifle (one expert says they were .30-30!!). Actual studies show a miscellany of weapons, old and new, firearms, lances, bows, etc. The facts seem to be that the troops were 1) hopelessly outnumbered and 2) poorly led and disciplined.

Jim
 
The first "Trapdoors" were made by adding a hinged breech block to the 1863 muskets. After considerable testing, the prototype developed by Erskine S. Allin of the government-operated Springfield Armory was chosen for its simplicity and the fact that it could be produced by the modification of existing Springfield Model 1863 muskets. These modifications cost about $5 per rifle, which was a significant savings at a time when new rifles cost about $20 each. Patent No. 49,959 was issued to Erskine S. Allin on September 19, 1865, describing the design.
 
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No doubt there were "bean counters" in those days (there always have been and always will be), but the Army went to the trapdoor primarily because it had a lot more power, range, and accuracy than any of the repeating rifles available at that time. The Spencer had about the power of the SAA; the Henry had a lot less. In a later era, that gap between rifle and handgun would be filled by the sub-machine gun, the latter-day equivalent of the Spencer and Henry.

In many of the firefights of that era, the range and power of the trapdoor paid off, but at LBH the fighting was at close range and Spencers would have been almost ideal. Plus, the less powerful cartridges did not have the problems experienced with extraction that the .45-70 Benet primed cases did.

There is a myth that Custer was hopelessly outgunned by "Native Americans", each of whom had a brand new Winchester rifle (one expert says they were .30-30!!). Actual studies show a miscellany of weapons, old and new, firearms, lances, bows, etc. The facts seem to be that the troops were 1) hopelessly outnumbered and 2) poorly led and disciplined.

Jim

Another factor was the Indians were actually pretty well prepared & psyched-up for the battle. Chief Sitting Bull had had a "vision" of "soldiers falling into camp." In fact he painted a painting of the dream he'd had. This greatly encouraged the warriors, who always knew that they were seriously on the wrong end of things when they were attacked in camps, as had had happened at Sand Creek and Wash i ta*. The cavalry also knew they had this advantage and Custer certainly knew it.
General George Crook met the same Indian Nation earlier at the Battle of the Rosebud (IIRC) and his forces were turned back -- stupid decisions had been taken and Crook ran out of ammo. The Indians rejoiced, believing they'd won Sitting Bull's prophecy .... but Sitting Bull reminded them his vision had the soldiers falling into camp, NOT what had happened with Crook.
Instead of deflating the Indians this only further encouraged them, so when Custer hit them on that hot Sunday, June 25th, the Indians responded aggressively, efficiently and potently.
Another factor, Major Reno's uncoordinatred, amateurish attack on the southern tip of the village. He panicked, fled, and retreated in a disorderly fashion, taking refuge on a hill on the east side of the river, and freed up Chiefs Gall and Crazy Horse to be able to detach and go meet another threat, the five companies Custer was leading.
I have a couple books on the archeology being done at the battlefied. Some fascinating findings have popped up over the years. It's become possible to trace individual encounters, and more.
So far as Custer being outgunned, he certainly was. One expert said there were more Indians there with repeater rifles than there were troopers with Custer. Another factor was that arrows shot in ballistic arcs over hills in mass have good effect in that terrain, with coulees and hills and valleys.
The Indians could rain the arrows down on the troopers from over a hill, but the troopers couldn't return fire with any type of firearm through said hill.



Of course we know there were no .30-30s at the Little Big Horn since that round wouldn't exist until 1895.
However, if an episode of the old Rod Serling TV series "The Twilight Zone" was truth rather than fiction, one might expect the archeologists to find some .30 Carbine around from when a National Guard
Tank Squad mysteriously went through a time warp and wound up in the battle .......:scrutiny::scrutiny::rolleyes::rolleyes:


* Dang it this site asterisked the NAME OF A RIVER!!!!!!!!
SENSITIVE --- AREN'T WE?:p
 
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Recent examination after a prairie fire indicated the Indians 13 rounds to every one fired by the cavalry troopers.

It was raining lead and arrows that day.
 
Also, how fast can you shoot all the rounds and reload a 1860 or 1866 or, OR if any of the Lakota and Cheyenne had 1873s, .40-40 Winchesters accurately at near point blank range in any quantity vs. the time to reload a perhaps befouled and jammed single shot .45-70 trapdoor in the heat of battle. Sure the Springfields were outstanding weapons at long distance in organized volley fire in skirmish lines, much like the Martini-Henry, but just compare the massacre of the poorly organized British and their native levies the morning of same day of the very well organized defense of Rourkes Drift by a tiny detachment of similarly MH equipped Brits.

In another militaria forum we discussed the length of time it would taken an opponent high on adrenaline armed only with hand weapons to reach his opponent at a full run over open ground. In sufficient numbers, hundreds of the attackers would indeed be shot by the British or American soldier, but the defenders would be eventually overwhelmed by hundreds more of his attackers and dispatched quickly by assagi, war club, tomahawk, or what have you.

Consider almost every last stand in history, the Alamo defenders, the French Foreign Legionaires in Mexico, the Brits at Islandwandha (sic) ended poorly for the defenders, simply from sheer numbers of theirvatrackers. Additionally, at TLB, as Capt. Benteen answered to Gen. Terry, when asked what happened here: "Mistakes were made."
 
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I read somewhere that Custer had Gatling guns assigned to the Seventh but left them with his baggage train in Terry's column because they were slowing him down in his rush to be the first to engage the Sioux.

I also read speculation that had he kept the Gatlings with him the Sioux would have broken camp before he arrived and the battle might not have taken place at all.

On the .45-70 extraction problem, only 2% of the expended cases found at the battle field were split. Of course, if one of those 2% was jammed in YOUR rifle and prevented YOU from reloading, it would be of 100% importance to YOU.

At Gettysburg, Custer's Wolverines, armed with new Spencers, sent JEB Stuart's cavalry running back to Lee complaining that he had run in to a major force at the rear of the Union line.

Unless I was trying to pick off a particular enemy at a distance (like the scene at Adobe Walls,) I think I would prefer the higher rate of fire and the ease of reloading of a Spencer in a fire fight.
 
I just finished watching "They Died With Their Boots On" (1941, Errol Flynn and Anthony Quinn) for the umpteenth time.

Errol's main cavalry tactic seems to have been the saber charge (no sign of Spencers) but I still enjoyed it.

At the last stand they had Custer blazing away with a pair of 1875 Remingtons until Crazy Horse (Quinn) shoots him with a Winchester while riding at full gallop.

According to it, Custer knowingly sacrificed the 7th to save Terry's infantry column from destruction.

I do love Encore's Western channels.
 
The Spencer Rifle Co. folded in 1869.
The 7th's Spencer's were likely worn out and certainly not supported by the time of the Little Big Horn. Trapdoors were the only USGI rifle still in production.
 
I just finished watching "They Died With Their Boots On" (1941, Errol Flynn and Anthony Quinn) for the umpteenth time.

Errol's main cavalry tactic seems to have been the saber charge (no sign of Spencers) but I still enjoyed it.

At the last stand they had Custer blazing away with a pair of 1875 Remingtons until Crazy Horse (Quinn) shoots him with a Winchester while riding at full gallop.

According to it, Custer knowingly sacrificed the 7th to save Terry's infantry column from destruction.

I do love Encore's Western channels.


That Errol Flynn movie is very entertaining, but it simply is not useful for anything that resembles a source of history.
It's just Hollywood tidying history up for "Errol in Historywood."
Custer did have a rather romanticized view of the sabre; while leading his first Civil War charge, he'd draw his sabre, replace it and draw his revolver, only then to switch back to the sabre. Since it was customary for the soldiers to choose the same weapon as their leader, his whole regiment was seen doing the same thing :eek: Custer probably wisely settled on his revolver, realizing it was truly the better weapon.
At the Little Big Horn though, the 7th left their sabers behind them; no clinking-clanking metal to be heard by the Indians.
And Custer would never have "sacrificed" the Seventh to save General Terry; he didn't know General Terry very well and he simply would not have imagined the situation was such that Terry would be in any danger ... after all, He was there and he was pretty certain he was going to easily settle some Sioux hash that day.
 
There is a speculative minority train of thought in TLBH grail lore that Custer was shot and perhaps mortally wounded in his detachment's aborted effort to cross to cross the river at Medicine Tail Coulee. After that and the near immediate convergence of the native Americans' convergence at his detachment's position from both sides of the river spelled doom for Custer's command. Capt. Benteen's testimony at the army enquiry is very interesting reading, especially his estimate of the number of native American combatents. I'll see if I can find the link.

This link has some very interesting stuff.

http://astonisher.com/archives/museum/frederick_beneen_little_big_horn.html
 
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That's a very interesting read, elhombreconnonombre, the only exception I take is the assertion Custer violated General Terry's orders. It was long believed he had, but in fact the orders allowed Custer the leeway to attack as he had.
He did not precipitate the attack out of blind arrogant ambition; as he settled the 7th in to rest up for a supposed Monday Morning attack, Custer received word that the pack train (food and other supplies) had lost some food packs. Troops detailed to retrieve them reported coming across Indians pilfering them and the Indians escaped pursuit by the bluecoats. Upon learning of this that Sunday, Custer reasoned (possibly correctly but we'll never really know for sure) that those Indians would inform the village Chieftains of what they'd found and Custer's necessary element of surprise would be lost.
Thus, he changed the plan and attacked that same day ... and we know the results.
While writings from participants and those who, in the past, interviewed them are interesting and important, it should be recalled that there was a great deal of antipathy between Custer and Benteen. Benteen was hardly an objective observer, even though as a participant his recollections also cannot be ignored.
I myself do not believe Custer's 5 companies, or any major part of them, managed a river crossing into the village itself. Possibly a small contingent which were almost immediatly repelled. But that's my opinion, and while some historians agree with it, others do not.

We most likely will never know the whole, complete, story of what happened to Custer after John Martin (AKA Giovanni Martini) left Custer's detachment to find Benteen.......
 
I think it is interesting that the Sioux were unable (or unwilling) to dislodge and destroy the properly dug in positions of Benteen and Reno after the destruction of the Custer's directly led elements. Caught out in the open, the Trapdoor Springfield Carbine was not the best weapon, but its power and sustained (not burst) fire capability did prove decisive in the later engagement.

Elizabeth Custer stayed with my direct ancestors when her husband went out on campaign in 1876. Because of that relationship, the battle has always maintained special interest for me.
 
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