Richards, Richards-Mason (and other cartridge conversions) thread

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As a continuation from another thread where we dived into talking about cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers, let's make this thread our discussion point. We'll post pictures and discuss cartridge converted revolvers, and the modern repros available on the market.

Here is my 1861
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This is why I asked about Are you sure there weren't .38 Richards conversions? But this is a Richards-mason, not a original type Richards.
 
Hard to tell from that image that it is an 1861, but, your word is good with me.

Yes, I am sure there were no 38 Colt revolvers built solely with the Richards patent conversion.

When you cock the hammer, is the hammer face flat or is there a firing pin? From the image, I am guessing there is a pin. The rear sight is not on the conversion ring but on the top of the hammer as they were on the percussion revolvers.

With additional images, we can determine more.

Kevin
 
Here's my 45acp!! ( Kirst conversion in an Uberti '60 Army)
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Here's the "sister" (consecutive) 45acp.

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Newest is skeletonized Pietta in 45C w/ additional barrels (pistol pack?).

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Pietta Remington w/45C Kirst gated (equalizer)
20230203_095031.jpg

Mike
 
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Hello Ugly Sauce,

Yes, .44 Colt Original.
It was a learning experience, but after all that a fun one to load & shoot.
I used Star-Line brass and a Lee 450-200-1R Black Powder Conical Cap & Ball Bullet.
I ran the bullet through a Lee .451 sizing die, then swaged a .428 heel onto the base.
I crimped with a modified Lee Factory Crimp Die.

AntiqueSledMan.
44 Colt.jpg
 
Hello Ugly Sauce,

Yes, .44 Colt Original.
It was a learning experience, but after all that a fun one to load & shoot.
I used Star-Line brass and a Lee 450-200-1R Black Powder Conical Cap & Ball Bullet.
I ran the bullet through a Lee .451 sizing die, then swaged a .428 heel onto the base.
I crimped with a modified Lee Factory Crimp Die.

AntiqueSledMan.
View attachment 1131278

Very cool. See, that's the kind of stuff I like doing. When the CZ52's and the Tokarev's first came out, I made 7.62X25mm brass out of .223 brass, and I used to make 8X56R out of 7.62X54R. Swaging the heel on the bullet sounds a little like black magic to me. !!!! I think the cool factor outweighs the labor of making original .44Colt, rather than taking the easy street with .44Special or .45Colt. Even though, the .44 Special and .45 Colt are both favorites of mine, and I reload for both.

I would guess that someone makes a mold for heeled .44Colt bullets these days?

Well, maybe this spring I can sell a VW bug project I have. I have a good running bug, don't need two. Can't sell the 2006 SkiDoo 600hp, tried again this winter and had to deal with the idiots and no-shows, I pulled my ad after a couple of weeks! Selling the Bug would cover a replica Richard's conversion in .44spl or .45 Colt. I'd probably go with .45, as I think a .44spl cylinder could be modified for the original, genuine, true-blue .44 Colt cartridge. Or perhaps a cap-N-ball cylinder. ? Oh well...dream and scheme!
 
No kidding Hawg, there were quite a few in my just now review. !!! The .44 Colt will live on, regardless of calling a .44 Russian Short by the same name. :)
 
Howdy

I hope you are not all getting bored with photos of my Richards Conversion.

pnoC4rKaj.jpg




Yes, the Richards Conversion was only built on the 1860 Army 44 caliber frame.




There are two features which make the Richards Conversion easily identifiable, and different from the later Richards-Mason Conversion.

The Richards Conversion had a frame mounted firing pin. It also had a raised rear sight machined onto the top of the conversion ring.

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The hammer had a flat face to strike the frame mounted firing pin.

pofGlcVcj.jpg




The second easily identifiable feature of the Richards Conversion was the ejector rod assembly. This was a complicated assembly and expensive to manufacture.

pmcHCUpij.jpg




It was mounted in the hole left behind where the cap & ball loading lever had previously resided. It was secured by the same screw the loading lever had pivoted on.

pnDBtUC8j.jpg


pldP2YGcj.jpg




The later Richards-Mason conversion reverted to a firing pin attached to the hammer, and I am pretty sure the rear sight of the Richards-Mason conversion was the old fashioned V groove in the hammer. I do not have one to show you, but the ejector rod assembly of the Richards-Mason conversion was much simpler, therefor less expensive to produce.


The 44 Colt cartridge was developed specifically for the Richards Conversion. Basically it was a metallic cartridge to replace the "44" caliber round ball used in the 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolver. The ball used in the 1860 Army was usually around .451 or so in diameter, so a ring of lead could be shaved off when it was rammed into the Cap & Ball chambers. But the actual rifling groove diameter was close to .451. So the 44 Colt cartridge bullet had an outside diameter or around .451, to engage the rifling. The rear of the cylinders were machined away, leaving the straight bored through front portion of the chambers. The cartridge case had the same outside diameter as the bullet, so it could easily be slipped into the chambers from the rear. Because the case and the outside of the bullet were the same diameter, the bullet was 'heeled' so the rear of the bullet could be crimped into the case. I found it quite interesting the first time i peered down the barrel from the rear end. It has gain twist rifling. Sorry, I do not have a photo of that.

poU1NlWCj.jpg




Interestingly enough, according to R. Bruce McDowell in his book A Study of the Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers, Richards Conversion cylinders reworked from percussion cylinders are relatively rare. Most of the cylinders were newly manufactured and not reworked old stock.



Moderators: I am getting real tired of some of my photos not showing up in my posts.
 
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I hope you are not all getting bored with photos of my Richards Conversion.

Never bored, always thrilled, always jealous and green with envy. Oh the pain! And has me scheming on a replica, if I could just sell something. The Bug project I don't need is buried in too much snow right now to put it on the market. Dang.

My questions are: Could a modern, replica cylinder be shaved off to produce a true .44 Colt cylinder, (instead of .44spl or "modern" .44 Colt") or were the chambers also bored or "cleaned up"? Do the chambers have any taper to them in cap-N-ball form? Original or replica?

Do you think the cap-N-ball guns, after the war, were used much with loose powder and ball? Wouldn't paper cartridges with bullets be widely available, and ex-soldiers and other used to using them? Yes, I realize a dirt-poor person might find it cheaper to use powder and ball. But would not combustible paper cartridges be more the norm?

And, what pistols (conversions) were chambered in .44 Henry? Sounds like Colt went straight to the .44Colt, but I seem to remember something about conversions to .44Henry. ??
 
Interestingly enough, according to R. Bruce McDowell in his book A Study of the Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers, Richards Conversion cylinders reworked from percussion cylinders are relatively rare. Most of the cylinders were newly manufactured and not reworked old stock.
It's easier to index and bore a new hole in a cylinder blank than to drill thru an existing one and keep it straight - I believe this is the main reason for the newly made cartridge cylinders, instead of using all the percussion ones they can get/had in stock.

About the .44 Colt development - do you have more information about the early Frankford Arsenal's .44 Martin cartridge for the US Richards conversions and Remington NMA ones, as I have trouble finding more about it - was it only bullet and powder weight difference, or there is more?
 
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It's easier to index and bore a new hole in a cylinder blank than to drill thru an existing one and keep it straight - I believe this is the main reason for the newly made cartridge cylinders, instead of using all the percussion ones they can get/had in stock.

I don't think so. There was no need to do anything to the original chambers when converting them from cap & ball to cartridge. All that needed to happen was machine away the rear of the cylinder where the cap & ball nipples had been. That and configure a new ratchet star. But the chambers themselves did not need any boring or aligning.

Here is a modern Pietta 1860 Army cylinder on the left, the Richards Conversion cylinder on the right. You can see what has been 'machined away' on the Richardson cylinder.

plMam5SGj.jpg




Another view of the two cylinders. No need to 'touch up' the original chambers, what you see is what remained when the nipple area had been machined away. You can also see the new ratchet star that was created from the original metal.

pnWJh3Wuj.jpg



Sorry, I know nothing about the .44 Martin cartridge.
 
I see why the ratchet teeth were re-located. How is it done on the replica conversion cylinders? Anyone got a pic of one?
 
So, "tapered" chambers are a myth?

The cylinders with fluted chambers were not tapered. The reason for tapering chambers was some of the fluted cylinders blew up because the chamber walls were too thin at the bolt notch. The chambers were tapered starting just forward of the bolt notch. They would have had to have bored out the taper when converting to cartridge.
 
I see why the ratchet teeth were re-located. How is it done on the replica conversion cylinders? Anyone got a pic of one?
The replica cylinder would be milled shorter and new teeth cut in the new locations to make use of the shorter twin toothed pawl.
 
The cylinders with fluted chambers were not tapered. The reason for tapering chambers was some of the fluted cylinders blew up because the chamber walls were too thin at the bolt notch. The chambers were tapered starting just forward of the bolt notch. They would have had to have bored out the taper when converting to cartridge.
Which would be dead simple to do…
 
But the chambers themselves did not need any boring or aligning.
Remember that they still had to drill thru 1/5" thick chamber bottom with an offset nipple hole - that can guide a drill off center quite easily. But I'm just speculating here, because I'm not familiar with the exact process/setup Colt used back then.
 
Going thru "A Study of Colt Conversions..." by McDowell again, I remembered something I had forgotten - on page 176 he writes: "It was the original chamber notches that often broke through, and this was due to the weakness created by increasing the diameter of the bores (chambers)...With the newly fabricated conversion cylinders, the diameter of the rebated section was increased from 1.534" to 1.568", thereby alleviating the brake-through problem". So, there we have it - the real reason why newly made cylinders were preferred in the vast majority of the cases instead of converting the original percussion ones.

Bellow is a copy from page 142 of the same book, showing different cylinder dimensions. Dimension "B" is of interest here:

Cylinder dimensions.jpg
 
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