Riding The Link-It's a problem, need a solution

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I was looking at my 1911 after a few 3 point jams and as I suspected the barrel is riding the link. So i purchased a shorter link after trying to elongate the hole on the old on.

Well, the shorter link still is riding the link, but with it, it binds when swinging around to where it would be in full battery. So the shorter link is out.

So I want to stop the 3 point jams. How should i go about doing this? I already elongated the hole way more then tuner recommends, but it still rides.

Is it okay to elongate the link's hole for the slidestop pin until the slidestop pin just barely contacts the radius of the lower barrel lug? Or is there a definite spot that you just should not go beyond in elongating the link?

Is there a differnt solution entirely?

Standing by...
FE1911
 
Links

Howdy FE,

Swappin' out links willy-nilly is risky bidness. The link determines the barrel's unlock and linkdown timing. Too long and it's delayed. Too short and it unlocks too early, if at all. From the sound of things, your lower lug is possibly far out of spec. Since the link binds as it goes to battery position,
we can be sure that that particular link is too short for that particular lug's dimensions and geometry.

Since you've altered it, determining the on-center length will be tough unless you know what it is. Most mid-spec frames work well with the standard .278 link. Some require a bit of elongation to get the barrel off the link. No more than .003 inch though...and always at the top of the hole. Clearancing at the bottom of the hole works the same as using a longer link.

If you've used a standard .278 link, and it still binds slightly as it swings into battery, you can elongate it just SLIGHTLY, or...if the lower lug provides good lockup vertically, you can play with the lug a little to get the link to swing freely. A LITTLE....and you have to be careful to keep the slidestop pin bearing evenly on both sides. This is essentially a last-ditch effort to bring an out-of-spec condition into serviceability, so be warned that you can screw things up royally if you get impatient.
 
the link that i am using is the standard .278 center to center, with the hole elongated. The vertical lockup is spot on, i'm just riding the link and getting stem bind. I'm very wary about putting a shorting link in, and there is no way i need a longer link. I just need to get the slidestop pin on the front barrel lug radius without changing out links.

What can i do with my already elongated .278 link or a different .278 link? Or is this a job for a new barrel? :banghead:
 
Ride

Have you checked the gun for live-fire function? If the new link is obviously shorter than the old one, you may be okay, even though it still rides.

If the new link is too short to get around the front radius and into vertical position without getting into a bind with the lug and slidestop pin, you may need to reduce the contact area on the lower lug just a hair...but be careful and patient.
 
Update on the problem.

Well here's the skinny.

This is a springer GI i've been working on. I replaced just about everything.

First 50 rounds, everything went thru perfect, next 50 about 3 or 4 three point jams from slide lock.

All other checks for stem bind were done so it is down to the link. The elongation to a .278" link was .006" before any jams occured. This wasn't enough to get rid of the stem bind. I removed some more material so the total elongation is at .009" The checks with dummy rounds from slide lock seem to be good. Range report pending.

One other note is that i was using copper jacketed rounds which are very soft and deform slightly when cycled at full speed. This seems like it might be causing at least some of the problem.

Is .009" way to much to be taking from this link, or will it likey be okay to shoot? Basically i would like to know if taking this much material away from the link will cause big problems soon or later? It is still riding the link a little around the front radius, but i am worried about removing even more material.

The shorter link is out of the question without lower lug modification, which i am not to keen on. the standard .278" link is the perfect length for vertical lockup as is.

Thanks for the replies so far,
Standing by.
FE1911
 
re:

Whew! Sounds like you've either got a badly out-of-spec lower lug, or a bad tolerance stacking in the vertical dimensions from slidestop pin to slide installed height.

If the barrel unlock timing is good...the barrel starts to unlock at the right point...and it drops far enough to allow the slide to clear it at .250inch of travel...the .278 link is right. Barrel starts the unlocking phase at .100 inch of travel (nominally) and should be fully down by .250 inch. The barrel also has to drop fast enough to get out of the slide's way, or the locking lugs will suffer some damage at the corners. Determining the exact point of the start of unlock will require a fixture and two dial indicators. If it begins late, you can use a shorter link and elongate the bottom of the hole just a LITTLE in order to clear the lower lug. .003 inch maximum...and even that may delay the unlock sequence too much, or even fail to unlock the barrel completely. If a shorter link is required to time the unlock sequence, it's better to adjust the lower lug for clearance, and just live with a little looser vertical lockup.

This one sounds like a good candidate for another barrel, and the attention of a smith who knows the 1911 ropes.
 
The short of a 3 point jam is when as a 1911 feeds, the round gets jammed between the breechface in the rear, the top of the barrel hood, and the top corner of the barrel throat on the bottom of the barrel. This is caused usually by stem bind, which is always present in the 1911, just sometimes it can be too much, which results in a 3 point jam. For a more in depth idea on what it is, here is 1911tuner's description and solutions from m1911.org.

Thank you 1911tuner-
3-Point Jam
Reliability in a defensive sidearm is paramount. Reliability comes first, and everything else is a distant second. No man-made machine is, or can be completely reliable over its useful life span. Sooner or later, there will be a malfunction or parts failure, but we can take steps to reduce the possibility of malfunctions with a little understanding of how the gun works, and a little attention to detail.

One malfunction in a thousand is a fluke. One in 500, and we start to get a little nervous about the gun. One in a hundred, and the pistol is virtually useless, except for range work...and even that gets to be a hassle.

Feed stoppages...Probably the most frequent issue... second only to extraction/ejection malfunctions...and most often these are a failure to go to full battery. Rather than go into the standard advice to adjust the extractor...polish the breechface...get good magazines... polish the ramp and throat...ad nauseum...I'll assume that the reader has already addressed these areas, and is at a loss to determine the cause of his woes. Most pistols these days come with the throat and ramp already done and usually well-executed. Many pistols have been ruined by over-zealous work in these areas. Unnecessary work.

Stem bind is usually the culprit in a failure to return to battery. Actually, that's misleading, since a little stem-bind is always present in the 1911. That's what slows the slide as it goes to battery and prevents damage to the lower barrel lug and slidestop crosspin, and gives the round time to get under the extractor. Excessive stem bind is more accurate...or what is technically known as the "Three-Point Jam"

Three points...binding between the breechface, the barrel throat, and the underside of the barrel chamber. Forget what you've heard about the overall length of the round for a minute. If the 1911 is correctly set-up, it's more forgiving of cartridge length variation than many would have you believe.

Consider the barrel link. If the link is correctly fitted to a correctly shaped and in-spec lower lug, there probably won't be a three-point jam. Why?

As the cartridge strips from the magazine and strikes the barrel throat, it pushes the barrel forward. Due to the tilting-barrel design, when the barrel moves forward...it also moves upward. If the barrel is correctly fitted, this upward movement is provided by the front radius of the barrel being cammed up by the slidestop pin, and the rise is gradual.

Want to feel your pistol feed more smoothly than you ever imagined that it could? Load 3 or 4 rounds in a magazine...lock the slide to the rear... push the muzzle against the edge of a table, and ride the slide forward... not in slow-motion...but not at full speed either. You won't feel a bump... no hesitation...no stem bind as the round chambers. None.

Tripp Research has attempted to address this issue by designing a magazine that presents the cartridge at a lower angle as it enters the barrel throat. While this approach will often work...it's a band-aid that masks the true nature of the problem...and it doesn't always work.

Now, consider the incorrectly dimensioned lower lug. If the link is the correct length for vertical lockup, where the lower lug and slidestop pin bear the load of the vertical lock...but the link is long enough to hold the pin away from the front radius, you have the makings of a 3-point jam.

The condition is known as "Riding the Link". When the barrel rides the link around the lower lug's radius, it causes the barrel to rise early in relation to the slide's position...when the round is just entering the throat. In addition to rising too soon, it moves upward too abruptly, which puts the slide and cartridge even further behind in its approach to battery. Bang! A three point jam has just taken place. (Many factory-built pistols these days have this condition.) When you get a pistol that seems to feed everything that you put in it without a glitch...look at the link to see why.

Think back to your childhood, when you'd find a suitable stick to play "Pole Vault" with. Remember how the dynamics changed the higher you placed your hands on the pole? There was a point that you wouldn't be able to vault, no matter how fast you ran. Same principle.

Okay...You've plunked down your long green for a factory pistol that doesn't have a correctly dimensioned lug...The barrel is riding the link, and your pistol produces a return to battery stoppage often enough to destroy your confidence in it. You don't have the money for a gunsmith to refit the lug or another barrel...and you either can't afford or justify buying another pistol on the chance that this one will be "right". What to do?

Often the advice is to install a heavier recoil spring in hopes of using enough force to overcome the jam...This is not only the wrong approach, it usually doesn't completely eliminate the stoppage...It just makes it less frequent...at least until the recoil spring starts to get tired. You still have a nagging doubt that the gun will perform in an emergency. The ramp and throat have already been tended to.

There are a couple of approaches that will usually work. If the barrel is standing on the link in vertical lock, you can try a shorter link. You're limited to about .003 inch shorter here. If the shorter link will make it around the front radius without getting into a bind, you can go with that and likely cure the problem. A shorter link will have the effect of unlocking the barrel a little earlier...which can possibly be an extraction issue if it unlocks TOO early..while the chamber pressures still have the case expanded, but this will probably happen only if the unlock timing is right on the line anyway.

If the barrel is correctly locking via the bottom of the lug and the slidestop pin...and the lower lug is dimensioned so that the link is holding the pin away from tha frontt radius, you can't use a shorter link unless you modify the bottom of the lug...which will undermine your vertical lockup.

You can, however, modify the link a little by elongating the slidestop pin hole at the top to get the barrel off the link and onto the lug where it belongs. The barrel rise will be delayed, so that the slide will be a little further forward and the round a little deeper into the chamber...and at a shallower angle. The unlocking and linkdown timing will be unchanged, since the BOTTOM of the link's hole determines where and when the barrel will begin to unlock...and your stem bind will be substantially reduced.

On this modification, you are limited to about .005 to .006 inch of elongation, and even if it doesn't put the radius on the crosspin, it will put it much closer...relatively speaking. The probability of correcting the three-point jam with this is high...about 95%. If the lug rides on the pin, the chances of success are even higher. Elongating the hole even as little as .002 inch will usually produce a dramatic difference...so take it a little at a time. No more than necessary. This will make it a trial and error exercise.

To do this, I use a Dremel and a 3/16ths chain saw sharpening stone. The stone is slightly smaller in diameter than the slidestop pin, so you'll need to use a slight "rocking" motion to make the radius of the hole the same size as the pin. Otherwise, the pin and link will bind. You'll also have to be careful to keep the stone square to the link as you cut. If the hole isn't straight and true, the barrel will still ride the link, and possibly cause a side-load and a bind in that direction.

Use light pressure, so that instead of cutting, you are actually polishing the material and removing very little at a time. Be careful not to enlarge the hole farther than the sizing of the bottom half where the slidestop pin will fit into. Use a scrape to deburr the sides of the hole, paying attention to the modified area in the top. The tip of a good pocketknife will do. Measure the size of the hole with a dial caliper, and re-measure it often as you go. Test the feeding at .002 inch intervals, and stop when you fix the problem. A little is good...A lot ain't necessarily gooder.

Well thats the short and long of it, but witheverything it seems.... there is a lot more about it that i don't know.
 
All right tuner, i'm picking up what you are putting down.

I was hoping i wouldn't hear the, "you may need a new barrel thing" :banghead:

Ahh well such is life i'm told.

Thanks tuner, i appreicate it as always.
 
re: Butthead

Before ya butt a hole in that wall, go test the gun to see if the problem is solved. It well may be.

The main reason that I use a .003 inch maximum in the elongation of the top of the hole is because, if more is needed to get the barrel off the link, there's a good possibility that it needs a shorter link. Your .009 inch removal won't weaken the link, since that area doesn't come under any stress unless the
vertical impact surface is too far rearward, and causing the barrel to be stopped by the link...which puts tensile stress on it.(Stretches the link.) In this case, any reduction of the structural integrity would simply cause the link to fail sooner. Even if the elongation hadn't been done, it would either stretch until it allowed the barrel to stop on the impact surface...in which case the timing would likely be off...or the link would break, allowing the barrel to remain at least partially locked to the slide and causing a crash between the locking lugs and the rear of the lower lug.

The other problem with a too-long link is that it pivots the barrel upward early and abruptly, possibly causing a lockup timing problem as the barrel lugs try to mesh with the mating slots in the slide. While some guns seem to run fine with the link pole-vaulting the barrel, there's a limit to how much it will allow. This will vary from gun to gun, and could be your problem rather than a true 3-point jam.
 
Well i did shoot it, I shot 100 rounds with only 1 "3 point jam". The 100 before that had 3 of them. Though i am wondering if the problem is being made worse than it is because of the copper jacketed bullets i am using. They are extremely soft and dent very easily.

As far as what you said tuner, i need to study it, i just can't think straight about this anymore:uhoh:

Maybe i should just stick to revos, never seem to have a problem with them.

Thanks again tuner, let me know what you think if there is more about this problem i may be missing. As always i appreciate it all so far.
 
Close

Hmmm...On that one 3-pointer that ya had. Don't remember if you said that the barrel had the correct jump between the bottom edge of the chamber throat and the top edge of the feed ramp. Should be about .032 inch.
More is better than less. If the bullet nose itself is gouging and causing the stoppage, that sounds like the bug. Most stem-bind induced 3-point jams show a light gouge on the case, just below the mouth...not on the bullet.

Has the top corner of the frame been rounded in a botched polishing attempt?
 
the gap between the top of the ramp and bottom of the throat is actually a little more then .032. What i meant to say is that the bullets are soft, and since there is always a little bit of a stem bind condition with the 1911 the cartridges would tend to dent easier possibly causing the bind.

However this is mostly just a theory.

One thing i should point out if i hadn't already is that all the jams were from slidelock on full mags. When it jammed, dropping the clip would instantly remedy the problem.
 
I have the dial indicators to be able to check the unlock timing on the barrel. Do you know where i can find good instructions on how to set this up and where to measure by chance?
 
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