Rifle and Scope Will Not Zero

[Crowman]

This is a long one because a certain amount of background to the problem is needed.

Now for a little background...My friend's all-weather stainless steel (with black plastic stock) Ruger M77 Hawkeye rifle started rusting last year on the barrel exterior. He keeps it in a gunsafe with a working Golden Rod heater in it. There are other stainless rifles and blued ones also stored there with no oxidation problems.

We contacted Ruger about the rust problem and they had him return the rifle with bolt and the scope rings, but less sling and scope, to the factory.

It was repaired and returned a couple of months later with no comment as to what work was done. We carefully examined the returned rifle and noted that there was not a single scratch anywhere on the rifle action or stock despite previous use. There was no wear in the bolt area and lug locking area of the action. Interestingly enough, the returned bolt was definitely the original. It showed normal wear and use. You could tell that it had been fired before. The bore was immaculate. Before he returned the rifle to Ruger, you could definitely tell that the rifle had been used. Even though the serial number was the same, it appears that he got a brand new rifle back, but with the original rings and bolt.

Because of all this, we needed to re-install his scope and re-zero the rifle. They returned the original stainless scope rings, which were still completely oxidized with almost black and brown splotches. We were surprised at this and would have thought they would have returned new rings. We were careful to keep the rings together as a matched pair. The rings were checked for concentricity using a pair of 1" centers and then lapped until concentric. Then the scope ring screws were uniformly torqued to about 16 inch/lbs. We also checked that his rifle's action screws were tight...they were. Very tight. Also noted that there was firm contact between the stock fore-end and the barrel. Looked like it was firmly "bedded" in the plastic stock.

Yesterday, my friend and I went to our range to zero our hunting rifles. Mine is a Remington 700 LSS Mountain Rifle in .260 Remington (firing a 140 grain Nosler Partition handload). His all-weather Ruger M77 Hawkeye rifle is chambered in 7mm-08 Remington (Firing 140 grain Combined Technologies bullet and 139 grain Hornady SST handloads). Both of us are using Nikon ProStaff 3-9X40 BDC scopes. He is using the original Ruger rings. His Ruger was previously zero'ed with the two handloads shooting about 1" to 1-1/4" groups of each other at 100 yards prior to being returned to the factory. This was so he could select what bullet he wanted and still have both hit to roughly the same point of aim.

We started with both our rifles in a gun vise and we re-checked scope screws, then used a collimator to adjust both scopes. Next we went to the 25 yard bench and set-up a Lead Sled with two lead shot bags (50#). We set his rifle into the rest and shot a 3-shot string and adjusted his scope so that the shots were hitting paper. His shots did not group but all were on the paper. We next shot mine. They were well grouped.

Now for the problem...We moved to the 100 yard range, set up the Lead Sled and zero'ed my rifle. Shot practically one ragged hole. I'm done. Next we set up his rifle. Could not get a group smaller than 5-6 inches with either load. Shots would not group consistently, some stringing vertically with several inches in between impacts. Others were 12 o-clock, 3 o-clock, and about 7 o-clock, with over 4' between shots. Both of us shot the rifle just to make sure there was no "operator error". Also noted that small scope corrections did not affect point of impact much. We tried three of his proven handloads and none would group.

Not sure whether problem is that the original handloads no longer work in this rifle now, or whether there may be some stock issues, or what. The scope was kept in original factory box while rifle was out for repair, and never dropped. Don't think scope will go from great to dud sitting in a box for a couple of months.

We are two old retired farts on a fixed income (can't afford fancy gunsmith work) who've been shooting a variety of guns for more than a century between the two of us. We're stumped.

Any thoughts?

 

[jmr40]

I seriously doubt he got a new rifle. More than likely just dissasembled and run through the bead blaster to refinish the stainless. My guess is that something may not be back together correctly after re-assembley. Rugers are quite picky about how the action screws are tightened.

Start with all 3 screws slightly loose. The angled screw should be tightened first, and get it as tight as possible. This pull the action down and back. If any of the other screws are already tight, the action cannot move and it will bind. Tighten the screw in front of the trigger guard next and the one behind the trigger guard last. They do not have to be as tight. Just enough so they don't work loose during recoil.

That has helped with some rifles. That is my best guess unless Ruger put something else together wrong.

 

[fallout mike]

It may be that it just doesn't like that load anymore. Maybe some little thing is different now just enough to not jive with the load. I would try working up a new load first personally.

 

[adelbridge]

Ruger would not be allowed by law to send a different serial numbered gun to you without a legal transfer. Do the serial numbers match? Ruger may have replaced the barrel. Rusted rings could throw off alignment fairly easily.

 

[MistWolf]

When a rifle is scattering it's shots over a 5 inch "group" the answer isn't working up a new load. The answer is going over the rifle searching for bedding anomalies, improperly tightened action screws, binding rings, scope shifting under recoil and a broken scope

 

[fallout mike]

I think we can rule out the broken scope from what has been posted and you may very well be right with everything else you posted. However, what I posted said at the end "personally" that's what I would do. I've seen some very bad "patterns" from handloads that didn't agree with the gun AT ALL. If the gun had extensive work done to it then the ammo "could" be a problem. And that's something I could do myself and would not need someones assistance ,seeing as im not a gunsmith.

 

[MCMXI]

I would remove the action/barrel from the stock to check for any obvious signs of a problem and then reassemble as per jmr40's instructions. Then shoot another group at 100 yards. If that doesn't correct the problem you could mount your friend's scope on your rifle and shoot some or your loads since yours is shooting well. That way you could verify whether or not the scope is bad. If the problem still exists I would send the rifle back to Ruger.

 

[chaser_2332]

So did the rifle just go back to ruger because of the rust?

 

[Crowman]

To answer chaser_2332, yes. The rifle was sent back solely because of external corrosion and pitting (cosmetics). It was only about a year old.

My friend's rifle had previously been satisfactorily zeroed with the handloads previously referenced prior to being shipped back to Ruger.

We did not loosen the action screws, just verified that they were tight. There were no gaps between the stock fore end tip and barrel.

Whatever bead-blasting was done, some machining and polishing was also done because the action interior was pristine as though the gun had never had several hundred rounds run through it. The bolt rails looked like the bolt had not slid in it before. The factory shipped the rifle with the bolt out of battery, which is standard practice. As a matter of fact, when we inserted the bolt for the first time after he received it, marks were made as the bolt slid into battery and locked into place, normal cycling marks that were previously absent. Plus the bore was pristine and the crown appears to be smooth and burr free. We were amazed that we could not tell any wear on the stock, barrel or action, save only the bolt and rings, which were noticeably original and untouched by the factory. This rifle had been hunted with previously, yet the stock had no signs of wear, no scratches, looked brand-new.

I don't know, but I've been told that manufacturers will sometimes replace actions and stamp the replacement with the same serial number, but only after the old one was destroyed, to keep things legal. Yes, the serial number matches.

I think we will try new scope rings next. I happen to have a spare set left over from my all-weather Ranch Rifle that I can loan my friend. This will be the easiest. Otherwise, we can pop the action out of the stock and re-seat it.

By the way, what are the proper torque values for the Ruger action screws? Do all have the same value, or do different ones have different values? I saw the angled screw under the magazine floor plate and the flush screw forward of the trigger guard and the last one trailing aft. I hate just cranking on something until it groans...usually that means you've gone too far. I don't recall seeing that in the manual.

 

[jmr40]

The ranch rifle rings won't work. They are the same rings, but the 77 receiver is lower in the rear. You use one size taller rings on the rear than the front. The Ranch rifle uses the same rings, but because the front and rear receiver is the same height you use 2 rings of the same height.

Where in N GA? I live in the north part or Floyd County near Rome. I have a set of SS Ruger low rings you can have. If not too far I'd meet you somewhere.

As to making a new rifle with the same SN. I know it can and has been done for guys who live in states where guns are registered by SN. In GA that would not have been necessary. Ruger could have legally shipped a brand new gun directly to your friends door with no FFL required if they were replacing a defective gun. Even with a different SN. I found this out several years ago when S&W shipped a new gun directly to my door. I was expecting it to arrive at a local gunshop and was concerned about it being legal until I did some research.

 

[dustin280zx]

Check the scope rear focus to make sure the locking ring is tight. I've had that happen to me once.

 

[Crowman]

jmr40:

I live in Morganton, GA.

I called Ruger this morning and had a nice chat with a very knowledgeable lady named Louise. She cleared up a number of things. My friend's rifle was refurbished, and not replaced. I have to say, they did a bang-up job on it!

Also, scope rings are a non-issue here. Problem is in the bedding screws. The trigger guard screws may have been over-tightened before it left the factory.

She told me that the front angled screw must be torqued to 95 in-lbs (or about 7.9 ft-lbs), and that is gorilla tight! The trigger guard screws are supposed to be only firmly hand-tight then backed off 1/8 turn and locked with blue lock-tite. The tightening sequence given by the factory is: Front angle screw first, next, the screw in front of the trigger guard, and finally the rear screw.

I'v seen posts of gunsmiths who alter the tightening sequence, and some who don't torque the front screw properly, but this is what the factory recommends.

She told me to do this and see if accuracy improves. To make torquing easier, she is sending me a new set of blued Torx head screws to replace the slotted head screws. She told me that the factory is changing over to the new screw heads; however, the factory does not have stainless screws available yet for guns already out in the field. I told her that at this point, I did not care what flavor they were, send some out. We are expecting a new set of screws in about 7 days. She told me that if after these steps are taken and the rifle fails to hold zero or group accurately, then to call back and arrange to send it back to them.

We will follow factory recommendation to the letter and try again.

 

[CMC]

Quote " Also noted that there was firm contact between the stock fore-end and the barrel. Looked like it was firmly "bedded" in the plastic stock"

This may be part of the problem, unless it was designed that way.
I prefer to free float the barrel to avoid vertical stringing.

 

[Crowman]

The factory lady told me that I should not get a dollar bill in between the barrel and stock...they fit them close...bed them rather than float them.

 

[osprey176]

Hope the new screws help.If not,I would have a real good look at the crown.If the barrel was bead blasted,its possible they made an accidental pass over the muzzle and damaged the crown.It would suprise me greatly that Ruger factory techs would make this mistake,but it is possible.It doesn't take much damage to the crown to scatter shots all over the paper.And it's about the least expensive accuracy trick you can do to a rifle.

 

[Crowman]

Got e-mail from Ruger. They want the rifle back to evaluate and have sent both a RMA# and a return shipping label. Will send back and see what happens.

 

[oneounceload]

I agree about the forearm - especially when you said you were getting vertical stringing - that is the sign of a heated barrel pressing too much against the forearm; I also prefer free-floated barrels and having the action glass bedded

 

[Pokyman]

Before sending the rifle back, I would suggest mounting a different scope. If the problem persists then you know it is the rifle. If the different scope solves the problem then at least you know that there is nothing wrong with the rifle.
Some scopes are prone to have accuracy problems. I have had numerous times when a customer brings me a rifle that will not shoot accurately. I would suggest that after a sight correction that you tap the scope with a wood dowl or screw driver handle next to the turret before shooting again. Don't beat on the scope, just a mild tap or two before the next shot.Sometimes after a turret adjustment, the cross hairs do not move until jarred. Often when you encounter this problem you make an adjustment and shoot. the point of impact has not moved. Then you adjust again and shoot. The impact has gone farther than you wanted. Then you adjust again. What it amounts to is just chasing bullet holes all over the paper.
I recently had a customer bring me a rifle that had been shooting fine. He got tired of people giving him a rash about putting a cheap Simmons on a Browning BAR. So he bought a nice Leupold. He could not keep all shots on a paper plate at 100 yds. He sent the scope back to Leupold for evaluation. Got the scope back and was told the scope was withing specs. Still would not shoot well even tapping the turret. Put the Simmons back on the rifle. The rifle went right back to shooting accurately.
Often people spend more time looking for problems with the rifle and not enough time questioning the scope.
Like I said in the beginning, try a different scope and see if that solves the problem.

 

[theblakester]

Interested to find out what happens. I would have guessed that they put a new barrel on the gun, and it just needed to be broken in. If everything was fit together tightly, I would think it would start shooting much better after a box or two of bullets.

 

[Crowman]

One of the things we did was to go about 3-4 clicks past where we needed to go and then back-dial to where we needed to be in order to take-up the slack in the adjustment screws. We also tapped the scope lightly. Was familiar with scope crosshair adjustment screw slack.

Ruger told me three days ago that this was the original barrel, and that they had "refurbished" my friends rifle. They had the barreled action out of the stock then and we think there may be an issue with the way the action was torqued down in the stock before it left the factory the second time. We'll let them sort it out.

 

[Picher]

I'm amazed that the factory recommends 95 inch-lbs. for a mounting screw. The only way that would be okay is if there were a metal pillar to take that amount of compression. Most benchrest rifles with pillar bedding or metal bedding blocks are only torqued to about 55 inch-lbs.

Shooting rifles with non-floated barrels usually requires a softer front rest that mimics field positions/rests. Although it's reasonable to expect vertical stringing to some degree, the size groups you're getting are not normal.

I'd send the rifle back to Ruger and insist on a test target to assure adequate accuracy before it leaves.

 

[Pokyman]

Again, I would suggest trying another scope you know is a good one.

Another suggestion- With the condition of the outside of the barrel before being sent to Ruger there is a good chance that the bore looks the same. I would suggest giving the bore a thorough cleaning. Use a good copper fouling cleaner. There are a number of good ones. I use Butches Bore Shine. Use a tight fitting patch as well as a bore brush. If you get "color" on a lot of your patches even after a good scrubbing with a brush, it could be that fouling is contributing to your problem. After the bore is clean enough that no more color shows then go shoot your rifle. Hopefully accuracy improves. After shooting, clean your rifle again. A little color is normal, but heavy fouling is not. If accuracy does not improve and above normal metal fouling returns, then your rifle may never shoot well with that barrel.
Some barrels shoot well enough with pitting that can be seen with just looking down a clean barrel. Others loose accuracy with pitting that can only be seen with a bore scope.
For us poor folks that cannot afford a bore scope the degree of metal fouling can help point us toward the problem.

 

[Still Shooting]

Ruger Bedding

I have 4 Ruger 77's and am familiar with their barrel bedding and action screw torque settings. Mind, I am working with wood stocks, but most likely the synthetics are similar.

With the wood-stocked M77's, the action screw tightening sequence is the same: First, the lug screw - 90 in./lbs on the wood stocks. Second, the trigger guard front screw, and lastly, the trigger guard rear screw. With wood, these are torqued at 35-40 in./lbs.

With wood, there is barrel clearance from chamber to the forend tip on all sides. At the tip, there is a "band" of material about 9/16 - 5/8 in. wide that contacts the bottom half of the barrel. This is done to damp barrel harmonics. If there is any warpage or "set" in the forend, there will be a good first, "cold" shot (maybe 2 shots), and then the group will open up and successive shots will either string or go all over the place. The proper pressure for the forend tip is 8-10 lbs. It can be checked by hanging weight from the front sling stud mount, and passing a dollar bill up the barrel to the forend; the bill should clear when the suspended weight is at 8-10 lbs. (the gun must be supported at the stock, and under the chamber).

On two of my four M77's, there was a slight warpage on the left side of the forend tip, and it was contacting the barrel with more pressure on the left than on the right side. The other two have both been sub-moa for several years. I have just corrected the situation with the two problem rifles by sanding out the barrel channel up to the forend contact surface, and then relieving the sides only of the contact surface, leaving bottom support intact but set to proper contact weight. Both are now shooting sub-moa @ 100yds.

 

[Crowman]

Dear Still Shooting:

You are correct. The Ruger torque value for the angled screw in the fiberglass stocked All-Weather Hawkeye is 95 in-lbs (or 7.9 ft-lbs) and the tightening sequence is both spot on, and what Ruger factory requires, period. My understanding is that future rifles will be shipped with Torx head screws to make the torquing easier.

We suspect someone at the factory may have over torqued the trigger guard screws and failed to properly align the action with the stock when doing so. We also fired 3-shot strings with barrel cooling time in between. Barrel was warm but never too hot to handle.

I like Ruger M77's and have a couple. I hunt mostly with a wonderful little wooden stocked Ruger M77 Compact (16-1/2 in. Barrel) in .260 Remington that is topped with a Burris 4x Mini-Mag scope. Never had any warpage with the stock......yet.

I set-up that rifle to shoot 6.5mm 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and it will print 3/4" MOA groups all day long. Bullet is a deer grenade. I use the little rifle inside a ground blind where space is tight. It is extremely fast handling. You can rarely see past 100-150 yards in my neck of the woods. No beanfields, just bunches of dense hardwoods forest.

As I've said earlier, my friend's all-weather Hawkeye's bore is pristine. No pitting, no fouling. We cleaned before sighting in, and afterwards. It is CLEAN.

The same (Nikon 3-9x40 BDC) scope that produced accurate groups with three different loads, was removed from and then later re-installed on same rifle. The shot groups went all over the place on the second time around. Only thing different was my friend's rifle had been worked on by Ruger and then returned. Same Rifle/scope combination worked A-Ok before, shoots like crap after. As far as I'm concerned, it's their dime. We will check the scope again, but don't think that is an issue.

Rifle is shipping out Friday to Ruger. I'm providing my buddy with a loaner until his gets back.

 

[Coltdriver]

You might have tried some known spec factory ammo.

I would bet you have a head space issue and there is not enough of it.

It will be interesting to see what you get back. Ruger is, by my personal experience, a fabulous company for customer service. Sounds like they are taking care of you.