Rifle bbl won't take BLUE or Paint, what's wrong with the metal?

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ACES&8S

ACES&8S

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An old bolt action Argentino Mauser in 7.65 ARG. with a 29" bbl.
The rest of the rifle takes cold bluing easily & was done by us 1'st thing, about
5 years ago. Since then it has been put away with a barrel spray painted black
& can't be bumped on anything or the paint just peals off.
Originally the barrel had a black paint that wasn't easy to remove which tells me
there must be something that will stick to it.
We have tried BLUING & about a dozen different kinds of paint but nothing can
stay on the barrel, like it is made to repel anything. You can actually remove the
paint with your fingernails.
Was this rifle made like this or is the result of something else? ? ? ?
What can be done to color this barrel?
Don't have any use for the rifle other than a display we have in mind of for several
old mausers & enfields.
 
ACES&8S said:
An old bolt action Argentino Mauser in 7.65 ARG. with a 29" bbl.
The rest of the rifle takes cold bluing easily & was done by us 1'st thing, about
5 years ago. Since then it has been put away with a barrel spray painted black
& can't be bumped on anything or the paint just peals off.
Originally the barrel had a black paint that wasn't easy to remove which tells me
there must be something that will stick to it.
We have tried BLUING & about a dozen different kinds of paint but nothing can
stay on the barrel, like it is made to repel anything. You can actually remove the
paint with your fingernails.
Was this rifle made like this or is the result of something else? ? ? ?
What can be done to color this barrel?
Don't have any use for the rifle other than a display we have in mind of for several
old mausers & enfields.
Click to expand...
Was the surface prepared properly before bluing? Try muriatic acid; if there is something on there that is repelling finishes, that will get it off. You will have to re-polish the metal, and be sure to de-grease the metal before you attempt to blue.
 
Professional hot-tank bluing should work. Cold blue evidently won't.

The British used a very durable black paint on their small arms called "Suncorite." This is a toxic process and, again, has to be applied professionally. It's hard to find anyone who's set up to do it. (This has been a bane of Enfield collectors.)

Some have suggested high-temperature BBQ paint, or engine paint, as substitutes. Probably with not very good results.

One way or the other, you are going to have to spend money to restore this rifle. Is it worth it to you? Only you can decide.
 
If not even paints will stick it's just greasy. Maybe waxy. The original paint may have not been paint in the normal sense, and whatever was there as the binding agent is still there. A bit of searching reveals that Argie Mausers were often (always?) finished in the white, and when you get a black one the dark finish isn't a real finish but a rust-preventative coating more designed for storage. The paint finishes we get on Enfields and others sometimes are similiar; the gun works fine in the white, but the paint is just an extra protective layer for storage, rain, etc. and is easy to touch up because who cares how pretty the gun is.

Rust preventative can, as you may imagine, be almost anything. Wax and oil-based finishes are common, some of which are not even curing type materials, but happen to dry out eventually so you can touch them, but they do not polymerize, and are just wax or oil at their heart still. You can't finish over that.

Do you need to remove it? Depends how authentic you want the gun to be. May be fine to leave in the white if the barrel is not rusting, or poke around appropriate forums and find a good replacement for the coating instead.

There are several steps you can go through to try to remove it and do your own finish, but since I have the supplies and find it easiest I'd use:
  • graffiti or adhesive remover, scrub a bit with a sponge, rag, or fine scotchbrite (old kitchen sponge) if you aren't worried about microscratching the substrate
  • denatured alcohol, to clean that off and degrease it
I'd do this on a small area, and then try various finishes to see how they work, like cold blue first, and move on. If it works, do the whole barrel this way.

Do not get this stuff on the stocks. It'll soak in and never be removed so will ruin the ability to refinish the stocks forever.
 
entropy said:
Was the surface prepared properly before bluing? Try muriatic acid; if there is something on there that is repelling finishes, that will get it off. You will have to re-polish the metal, and be sure to de-grease the metal before you attempt to blue.
Click to expand...

Been there done that. I have tried so many methods & even did the definition of insanity,
tried the same things again thinking I may have skipped a step.
The receiver is good & the bolt , everything is good except the Martian Metal barrel.
I know there are metals that need treatment before paint will take but with the rifle
being from 1891 I can't find any info on the metal not even the original barrel coating. Also because the rifle
had been in a flood causing it to rust somewhat but not badly, making me remember, the
barrel had no rust at all on it, just what appeared to be a patchy black coat of what appeared to
be the original cover. The of course Martian Metal doesn't rust.
 
AlexanderA said:
Professional hot-tank bluing should work. Cold blue evidently won't.

The British used a very durable black paint on their small arms called "Suncorite." This is a toxic process and, again, has to be applied professionally. It's hard to find anyone who's set up to do it. (This has been a bane of Enfield collectors.)

Some have suggested high-temperature BBQ paint, or engine paint, as substitutes. Probably with not very good results.

One way or the other, you are going to have to spend money to restore this rifle. Is it worth it to you? Only you can decide.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply:
We did try the high temp paint of about 3 different mfg.
Even sanded the barrel with very smooth sandpaper , degreased it lots , I think the last thing we tried was gasoline.
The rifle isn't important enough to be restored, it has just become a challenge.
 
Here is what the end result will be:
The rifle will go up on the wall at the highest point as a horizontal mount just below the ceiling.
It will join a group of firearms going -butt to muzzle- completely around the room using Enfields
old Mausers even old double barrels from late 1800's thru WW2. Inexpensive but history type
firearms along with some of their accessories.
I know I could leave it spray painted like it is & never handle it but I would always know it isn't
correct & I can't stand that.
 
shoobe01 said:
Argie Mausers were often (always?) finished in the white, and when you get a black one the dark finish isn't a real finish but a rust-preventative coating more designed for storage.
Click to expand...

ACES&8S said:
the
barrel had no rust at all on it,
Click to expand...

These are what is known as clues.
I would scrub off whatever is on the barrel now and leave it alone.
 
The most difficult thing I've ever experienced is trying to paint something exposed to silicone oil. If that were the case I would suggest submersion in something like acetone or lacquer thinner. Silicone will resist even some volatile solvents, I forgot which, a Google search will probably reveal an answer. You can clean it up but it has to be the right solvent several treatments.
 
shooter1niner said:
how about a 240 or 320 grit sand paper, degrease, then an etching primer followed by paint.
Click to expand...
I have done those steps, that was nearly the last effort. Got the idea for the etching primer from a reality TV program about
Restoration = a pull off from Pawn Stars.
 
Shimitup said:
I found a couple articles regarding silicone removal you may find useful.

https://www.finishing.com/399/79.shtml
https://www.pfonline.com/articles/silicone-oil-removal
Click to expand...
Stay with me on this:
CLUE #! =I read the articles you sent, & it is now my belief by what I already know, I believe the problem is not a silicone
problem because the ENTIRE SURFACE of the barrel is resistant to paint or bluing bonding or even penetrating it.
CLUE #2 =Yet the attached receiver took bluing easily first try & has stayed that way 100% covered.
If it was a contamination by silicone it would be on both barrel & receiver or at least partially on the receiver.
Also if it was just on the barrel it would most likely have at least a small, if not larger, area that would retain the
bluing or paint, but in this case it is 100% exposed & clean & fine sanded then cleaned again down to shiny.
metal & still 100% of the barrel resists bluing & paint.
CLUE #3 =The barrel was made in 1891 or there about.
Likely what we have is a barrel either made of a resistant metal for bluing or paint AND-OR something has effected the
make up of the barrels metal.
And as Shoobe01 says it was made with metal that takes a color treatment. So where does that put my idea?
 
Wonder if it's a high-molybdenum steel. With a dash of chromium, too. Not quite enough to be stainless, but enough to repel finishes.

If I remember my metallurgy right (a bit of a long shot [NPI]) one of the things molybdenum does is reduce acidic pitting. But, I could be mis-remembering, too.

But, being "not quite" stainless would explain why every thing seems to fail.

We probably need @MachIVshooter 's input here. Especially for opinions on what it will take to cut into this adamantium [:)] barrel.
 
CapnMac said:
We probably need @MachIVshooter 's input here. Especially for opinions on what it will take to cut into this adamantium [:)] barrel.
Click to expand...

Well, I'll offer what I can. I'm much better versed in the mechanical and thermal properties of alloys than exact composition and corrosion resistance.

I would think the barrel is just some variety of chromoly steel, which usually take bluing just fine, even cold blue. Some nickel steels like 8620 are used in barrel making, and they're darn near stainless. About the only way to know what it is would be to zap it with a spectrometer.

Since you say paint will barely stick to it, though, I'm inclined to think you probably have a corrosion inhibitor that has worked it's way into the steel pretty good, such that light sanding and normal chemical cleaning/degreasing aren't getting it. If it were me, I'd bead blast it pretty heavily and Cerakote.
 
Grit blast before coating. Beads don't give the surface enough profile (roughness) for the paint to adhere to.
 
CapnMac said:
Wonder if it's a high-molybdenum steel. With a dash of chromium, too. Not quite enough to be stainless, but enough to repel finishes.

If I remember my metallurgy right (a bit of a long shot [NPI]) one of the things molybdenum does is reduce acidic pitting. But, I could be mis-remembering, too.

But, being "not quite" stainless would explain why every thing seems to fail.

We probably need @MachIVshooter 's input here. Especially for opinions on what it will take to cut into this adamantium [:)] barrel.
Click to expand...

Metal allergy I remember that real well. Not really, it is far outside my memory now.
But here is the culprit disassembled & the barrel looks good but it isn't what it appears to be.
See the pic me easily removing the aged paint with my thumbnail. My wife is stripping the old stock now. It will look great. Argentino Mauser 1891.JPG Argentino Mauser 1891 Paint comes off.JPG
 
Here it is stripped again, you can't tell it but it is just about ready for a Ceramic attempt!
Have to treat it & clean it again.
Last try or I will give up.
Mauser barrel stripped AGAIN.JPG
 
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