Rifles that jammed!

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Jim Keenan said: FWIW, I think the AR-18 was superior to either the AR-15/M16 or the AK-47. Any thing short of a truck load of dirt simply does not bother it. Too bad the army didn't hang loose for a while until the "better mousetrap" came along.
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The AR-18 was never issued to any military organization in any quantity. It was designed to be a cheap, build at low tech level, alternative to the AR-15. Any superiority to the M-16 is largely imaginary. The Howa commercial versions were functional as Semi-autos, the Sterling produced versions, both commercial and military were pretty grim. The currently available versions are much closer to the M-16, much more expensive to produce than the original AR-18 and I have yet to see one, despite haunting the Little Black Rifle shops and hitting a gun show once a month or so during the season. (OK, I'm missing Berea, Ohio today, but I have this lawn, Mom's lawn and a house to prep for sale..)

The current replacement for the M-16 series by the US Army is the G-36 from H&K, as the direct fire component of the pending new infantry weapon, to be delivered real real soon now.

Geoff
Who still thinks a more powerful round is needed. Whatever happened to 6mm SAW?
 
Geoff,
The HK G36 is NOT a replacement for the M16 in the U.S. Army. Despite what the people who think that anythink HK builds is the best thing going and despite what certain manufacturers are publically saying in an attempt to boost their stock prices, the OICW will not be fielded anytime soon and when it is fielded (if ever) it will probably look substantially different then what you see now. Current plans for fielding (if they can make it work) call for 2 per squad. The same basis of issue we currently use with the M16/M203 grenade launcher combo.

Check out this thread on the Infantry School's forum:

http://www.infantry.army.mil/infforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=106

Jeff
 
This rifle was designed for the international military market as a replacement for the AR-15 project, which had been sold to the Colt in 1959 by the Armalite's parent company, Fairchild Aircraft and Engine Corp. The AR-18 was designed as a competitor to the AR-15, which could be made at much less expenses and on simplified machinery, with the view to sell the manufacturing licenses for AR-18 to the third world countries. The AR-18 was a really successful design from a technical standpoint, but it come out too late to compete with both officially accepted and adopted AR-15/M16 rifle of American origin and already widespread AK-47 rifle of the Soviet origin.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as36-e.htm
 
I have often felt that if the Ruger Mini14 had come out 15 years sooner, it would have been adopted hands down over any other design, it works, it is an American design, has relatively few moving parts, is very sturdy, can be cheaply made, and of course looks just like a scaled down M14. What general or colonel could refuse it?
 
When ruger starts chrome lining barrels and chambers and starts forging receivers Ill buy one,I know their investment casting is strong but I prefer forged,and back in the 70s the army evaluated the AC556 military/police model,although accepted for police use it didnt hold up to army abuse,I suggest keeping your AR15 clean especially in the desert and I cant understand why the focus is on the 16 when the 507ths M249 and .50 browing were also inoperable due to "LACK OF MAINTENENCE"My father used the garand in korea and he said if you didnt keep up with your rifle or not understanding the environment you operate in will most certainly down the system,he learned when you come out of the cold you must wait for your rifle to get room temperature and wipe off the condensation otherwise when you go back out it freezes and seizes and then he had to piss on his rifle to get it to work again and he didnt realize it untill he was being shot at,the point is knowledge is power when it comes to whatever trade you choose to do especialy a trade in wich your life depends on how well you maintain your weapon,an M16 has to be real dirty to quit on you and if you havent kept up with it it makes it worse.
 
Garands, Thompson SMG's, and BARS were known to have problems in the deserts of North Africa during WWII. Ditto in the South Pacific where the volcanic dust, which is very fine and abrasive, worked its way into the actions. Also in the South Pacific, the Garand and BAR were put out of action by .30-06 ammo that had been incorrectly loaded with artillery "black powder." Only the bolt action Springfield and the recoil-operated Johnson autorifle managed to continue functioning with that ammo. Gee, where else have we heard about automatic wepons that failed because of incorrectly loaded ammo?
Later, in Korea, the actions of the BAR and Garand were known to freeze up resulting in the need for field-expedient remedies like urinating on the weapon.
Guess we never should have adopted such obviously shoddy POS weapons.
Don't get too wrapped up in the idea that any weapon is totally reliable or soldier-proof, no matter who made it. Also try to avoid the common misconception, seen in every war we've ever fought, that whatever the other side's grunts are carrying is better than what our grunts are carrying. The "throw down an M-16 and pick up an AK" story is just the "throw down a Tommy Gun and pick up an MP-40" story redux.
 
But with complicated parts and a under powered gas system, no wonder they might jam more often. It may be a good gun but I don't think its good enough. But I doubt they will change the rifles now because it will show that the m-16 was a failure. You shouldn't have to clean your rifle every time you get a little dirt or sand on it. btw I have seen troops in Iraq and Vietnam looking over ditches with ak-47s.
 
btw I have seen troops in Iraq and Vietnam looking over ditches with ak-47s
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It has been reported in a couple after action reports coming from the Marines that AKs were used to supplement the pistols that Satff NCOs, officers and vehicle crews were issued...because there were not enough M16s or M4s to go around.

Matt, what is your personal experience with the M16?

Jeff
 
Matt, we cleaned our 16's not because a little dirt got in them but as a matter of regular duty. There were periods in the Highlands when we went over a week without cleaning as we were on the move so much and contact frequent. All I can say is that when I was in Nam (68-69). The weapon never failed me. Any infantryman or for that matter any personel in combat should keep their weapon clean. Yes, there were men in Nam that used an AK but in my time period the problems were resolved. The blame for the 16 was The Army's idiotic fault. Byron
 
Hey matt the M249 and .50 browning they had also failed,I guess those need to be replaced too,You are mis informed all 3 weapon systems were down,And like others asked what is your combat experience with the M16?I would like to thank the real veterans who offered their input on this subject,your opinion on the M16 is worth more than any armchair commandos opinion myself included.BDM out.
 
IMHO the M16 design still continues to have a serious problem, it NEEDS a "backward assist" instead of the foreward assist. Their is no good primary method to extract a jammed cartridge from the chamber, but you sure can jam it in further.

Grasping the charging handle and slamming the buttstock works pretty well most often but NOT all the time. It happened to me over 30 years ago with the "new and improved" M16A1, the foreward assist made the problem worse and turned me into an observer. It wasn't bad ammo or a dirty rifle, just a poor design. At least with a 100 year old Trapdoor Springfield I could have used a knife to pry the cartridge out!

The M2 has a long history of outstanding reliability, dirty or otherwise as does the AK47. The M16 design has a "documented" history of un-reliability. What other modern battle rifle shares this infamy? I'm not anti-M16, I own two of them and they sure have their merits, its a great "asphalt jungle" rifle. But reliability is not one of its merits (compared to other great military rifles), it needs to be pampered. Could you imagine the M16 being used in the trench warfare of WW1!

When the Iraq troops were running away it was not because of that "terror of the battlefield" the M16(or M4 or AR15) it was the M1 Abrams, M2 Bradley, rockets, shells, and bombs. In an equal battle (no tanks, aircraft, ect.) I'd just wait for the first sandstorm and attack with my AK47 and see who does the running then.:uhoh: Flame on.
 
Like I said the 507ths .50 and M249 also failed, and I think the israelis might have a different opinion on the 16 they use it in the desert with no problems, try www.isayeret.com some of their rifles are still in use after 30 years.Most problems with the rifle can be atributed to the user and spec ops personnel will tell you that,I have a friend who was a former army ranger,he never had problems with his rifle as long as he cleaned it,those in the sevice who want a weapon change are the ones sucking up to the potential contractors so they can have a cushy job after their career with the military,furthering their own agenda,just like the marine corps brass who didnt want the M4 for general issue so they bitched and bitched till they got their flat top full size version of the M4 so give me a break Im sure through the years there has been a lot of documented malfunctions so give us all a break down and tell us what was atributed to each malfunction and Ill bet the majority were do to poor maintenence and lets exclude the vietnam era because that was an ammo,no proper training ,no cleaning equipment problem,except for seals who got the first ever M16s due to the fact at that time seal teams had an open purchase policy to get whatever arms they wanted,their failure rates were no ways near what the army and marines experienced and they had the A1,why?because the navy is nurotic about maintenence and they cleaned their weapons so the bad ammo wasnt a problem and they knew the M16 was not self cleaning as advertised,so they maintained their weapons just like the stoner 63 ,rejected as to maintence intensive to be adopted by the marines but the seals loved it,the info source on the weapons I got from a book on the history of weapons used by the UDTs and later seals called "Special Warfare Special Weapons".From the failures you described did you jam the cartride home with the forward assist after the round refused to chamber fully or was your rifle made by harrington and richardson who was noturious for quality control problems as were other manufacturers,I would put my semi auto pre ban bushmaster carbine against any AK,I know how my rifle performs in crap,and also have the skills to keep it running or I wouldnt have had as much fun at blackwater as I did,I dont have combat experience but ive had my rifle wet and muddy while shooting on a blackwater range that was 5 to 10 inches submerged in water when I went,my rifle functioned fine and I also cleaned it after the 600 rounds a day I put through it,cleaned and lubed once a day no problems,and im sure a desert is harsh on all weapons if not maintained.
 
Again, the M16 needs to be pampered to have any reliability, Bushmaster or not. Its a problem with the design not the maker. I am aware of the history and causes of the M16's failures. The AK47 will function just fine with any dirty powder short of black powder (that would be an interesting test for reliability, any load data available?:scrutiny: ) Be advised, don't shoot that cheap .223 ammo unless you have a SAR, it would be too time consuming to clean your Bushy every 100 rounds or so.:D
 
Actualy all I shoot is wolf fo4r blasting ammo its what I took to blackwater, and ive gone so far 1500 rounds with out a cleaning and lubing 1 time before I shoot and thats because all I brought to the range was 1500,at blackwater I went through 600 rounds a day if your ARs the 2 you own are only going 100 rounds before you have to clean it its either cheap made rifles, parts or did you build a franken AR out of all kinds of parts,the canadien company Diemaco recently did MRBF mean rounds before failure test to the c7 their version of the M16,it went 15000 rounds before a malfunction, just do a search for the company and go to the site,and alot of problems with the M16 then and the colt M4 as made now can be attributed to quality control.Yes the design is a dirty one but its not a problem if you do routine maintenence. It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to clean mine well, and under combat conditions a simple remove the carrier wipe out the upper re lubricate the carrier and bolt and it should keep it going,most people are lazy that is why they buy AKs. Id like to see you chamber a round in an AK let the bolt carrier rust shut"wich can happen even if that rifle is not kept up in a wet environment" and then try to fire it before kicking the bolt loose,and that AK wont be worth the $15 dollars it is now on the third world market,M1s had problems in the desert in ww2 when they werent maintained ,I beleive the army made a training film about it ,you hate the 16 fine but its not the same made weapon it was 30 years ago,unless you buy a colt M4 clone with the higher than spec removable handle so to make it more unique so they can be the only ones that make it.My buddy just got one and the buffer was plastic,so much for good quality.and it was sealed in plastic dripping in oil when it was taken out,And I know its not the dealer cause he gave my buddy a proper buffer fealing bad the way it came seeing it was $150 DOLLARS MORE THAN A BUSHMASTER.:DAnd I can imagine the M16 in world war 1,more closed to out side mud and debris,more time to clean it right cause your in a trench,if its the M4 more hand and manuverable in a trench,and cause every one has a "trench broom"you can just dig your trench to the enemy and hose him down,then with an aimpoint your the only army with night shooting capability and when its all said and done the worst weapons of the war will still be anything the french used for small arms.
 
Even omn the israeli site it lists the problems with the tavor now and they are already on the tavor 2 variant,M16 is gonna be around a long time.
 
Cost and no iron sights also were problems and bragging its the worlds best assault rifle that remains to be seen when it goes into hard service. and yes the M16 did,but with reasonable maintenence it works fine is still leathal and still has the fastest mag change of any rifle.And with the marines just getting their new M4 accessorie type flattop only in a full size the M16 isnt going anywhere any time soon.
 
It has iron sights now.

http://www.defense-update.com/news/62302tavor.htm

For several years the IDF evaluated the Tavor against the M-16 M4. The two weapons recently completed extensive field evaluations with special forces as well elite infantry units, such as the Givati Brigade. Following the conclusion of these tests, the IDF made its decision. The evaluations were very positive and overall, Tavor proved to be significantly more accurate and reliable compared to the M4, and became the favorable sidearm by the majority of the infantrymen participated in the tests. The weapon proved to be more comfortable to operate, and more accurate in instinctive fire, as the natural carrying position – an inherent advantage of the rear center of gravity, derived by the compact bull-pup design.
 
they are fielding it because of pressure from IMI to field a domestic design lets see if this thing holds up or if it ends up like the GALIL,an insignificant 3rd line weapon thats almost never carried and that was an IMI domestic design too as far as better comort better instinctive shooting number 1 there is no substitute for a weapon shouldered and fired,with both eyes open point shooting this way is much more accurate than instinctive hip shooting,if so then im sure they would have taught me at blackwater,maybe they should test the tavor there,and feed it wolf lets see how tough this thing is.and the M16 has the best iron sites in the world,when the tavor goes throgh its baptism of fire and evolves into a design with iron sights then maybe we can call it a bonafide infantry weapon,bullpups have lousy ergonomics and slow reloads,Ill take the M16 the worlds best human engineered,most accurate,easily and quickly serviced general issue rifle in the world.
 
Ill take the M16 the worlds best human engineered,most accurate,easily and quickly serviced general issue rifle in the world.
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The m-16 would be about my 30th choice. Reliability not accuracy gets the highest points in my book because your not going to be able to use that accuracy if you can't get the thing to fire.
 
It is reliable maybe your just to lazy or dont have the skills,experience or knowledge of the weapon system to keep it going,maybe it has more problems in the desert but so does every thing else if its not maintained,I assume your praise of the tavor and hate of the M16 comes from some hands on experience with either weapon system,So I guess the israelis have been faking it with the M16 for the last 30 years,Every one thought the steyr aug was the best and most reliable when it came out,and as they got a little mileage on them they started having problems to,Just like the G36 isnt the miracle replace all weapon,you are obviously misinformed that maintenence company had all its weapons fail,an M249 and a browing .50,The M16 works just fine if you clean it at least once a day,go to the miltec site you will the see the email from an inspecting colonel at the 507th,the weapons didnt fail because of bad design or lubricant,they failed because they were not maintained and a good soldier takes care of that wich takes care of him,my personal opinon is based on experience while yours seems to be based on "the beleive everything you read and pass it off as the word of god attitude"150,000 others are using the M16 with no problems,in a war zone laziness and complacency and not paying attention to detail will get you killed,if you have first hand experience of why the M16 is so bad state the facts with proof and stop quoting my personal opinions though they are based on experience with the rifle in all kinds of conditions.:rolleyes:The prevailing attitude by some at times seems to be "the more posts I have the more I know than everyone else"wich isnt so,so whats your experience?under what conditions?and with both weapons,I assume the way you talk you have first hand experience with both weapon systems?Then maybe you could educate me on the M16 s design flaw based on its function and a design that time is just catching up to now after almost 40 years.
 
BDM, well put. What unit were you in and when? My experience was 68-69.
Byron
 
I was in 87 and 88 2 years I went through regular basic and did the rest of the time with a gaurd unit the 26th yankee division up north here I went to shool the same time I was in,although it was a weekend a month the two weeks a year you would get to see different places going on traing cycles with regular army units,it was fun and I got to shoot alot of things I would never get to otherwise it was a good experience and I wish, looking back that I did it full time and it was the best thing for me out of high school at 17,so I have no combat experience such as you probably have so you would probably know the M16 even more than me in those years,my dad is a korean vet,I originaly went in because my father always said in his day even when there wasnt a war you had to do your service so it was a way for me to serve and contribute and still get an education and be close to the family,still I wish I did it full time,now Im 32 hapilly married,a few pounds heavier and work for the town I live in,the good thing was I got my first AR in 86 so I already knew a little about the rifle.
 
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