Rifles w/ Magazine Cut-off

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jolly Green

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
103
Just interested in finding/learning more about more rifles that have a magazine cut-off mechanism.

So far I know of:

US M1903
Irish RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) (basically a 1895 enfield)
Turkish Mauser <--- i think



What else?
Thanks for any responses.
 
What is magazine cut off?
As I understand it, a magazine cut-off is a mechanism for bolt action rifles which disables the internal box magazine forcing the operator to load a cartridge after every shot. The remaining bullets in the magazine are left as a reserve. When the mechanism is disabled, the magazine feeds normally.

Edit: Thanks for the responses so far!
 
Mag cut-off...

Since my teens (a very long time ago) I've wondered: WHY??? re. magazine cut-offs. Especially with a Mauser-type bolt (like the 1903-A3, which is what I had @ the time) the extractor of which prefers to have the base of the next cartridge slid up under it, as the bolt shoves the next round forward from the magazine, rather than having to snap over the extraction rim of the cartridge base as the bolt closes on a single-fed round.

As to single-loading, you can replace the top cartridge in the magazine when you open the bolt after firing, then close the bolt and that top cartridge will feed normally, as the extractor prefers. Repeat as needed for as many shots as are wanted to be single-loaded. Voila! You still have a full magazine. Well, minus one round. Can't see where that would make any difference, even in trench warfare.

And military rifles generally are very easy to "top up" from stripper clips.

At the time it seemed like an unnecessary feature, which only increased the number of parts on the rifle, or machining steps, or such, therefore making it more expensive to produce. So it still seems. Not to mention the possibility of breaking the extractor (again, we're talking a Mauser-type bolt, here) thus making the rifle useless in warfare except as a bayonet mount or a club.

So, long story short: Is or was there ever a SENSIBLE reason to have a magazine cut-off?? Sensible reason as opposed to military excuse.
 
Last edited:
Sensible use? Hard to say. The military intent was somewhat analogous to the "select-fire" capability of a modern assault rifle. (i.e.: single shots only until the very fiercest, closest action)

Soldiers would be trained to load the magazine and then enable the disconnect. The rifle can then be fired and cycled and then single-loaded without having the next round in the mag pop up and get caught by the bolt face on the way forward. (Usually the bolt is blocked from coming back that last fraction of an inch so the rounds in the magazine can't move up.)

This allows the rifle to be repeately fired like a single-shot a little more smoothly than having to snap the next round down into the magazine feed lips for every shot. It might not sound like much of an improvement (might not BE much of an improvement) but it is more beneficial than you'd think -- IF you actually use the rifle that way.

Only when faced with immediate close action would the soldiers disengage the disconnect as they may have to cycle 5 (or whatever the mag capacity might be) fast rounds without stopping to reload.
 
So, long story short: Is or was there ever a SENSIBLE reason to have a magazine cut-off?? Sensible reason as opposed to military excuse

See what Sam1911 said.

The US army saw rapid fire as a waste of ammo. That's why they selected the Krag over the Mauser initially; it was slower to load and fire. While it might seem incomprehensible that the military would actually want less firepower, that's how army brass was (and to some extent, still is).
 
Consider the evolution of the military rifle at the time. They had come from black powder cartridges in the trap door rifles, and it was believed that the rate of fire for the new bolt action cartridge rifle was best controlled by shooting single shot, but the additional rounds were at the ready in case it was needed. My 1896 Krag has the cutoff. All of the Krags did.
 
it's practical function was to encourage aimed fire, it's logistic function was to limit expending ammo too quickly.

you have to remember that this was before the days of modern movement tactics
 
No idea on out of the US but at one time the officers of a unit where responsible for paying for expended ammo past the paltry several rounds a year that the army issued for practice.
 
Oddly enough, after WWI, when the British were trying to tweak the SMLE's design to make it easier to mass produce, and came up with the No. 1 Mk. V version (the main wartime one was the No. 1 Mk. III*), they reintroduced the magazine cutoff that they had deleted as a wartime production expedient. I've never understood this; it makes no kind of sense. Not only did wartime experience prove the uselessness of such things (the U.S. M1903 Springfield originally had one that was also deleted as a result of WWI experience), it was deleted in order to simplify mass production... and then reintroduced on a postwar redesign intended to simplify mass production still further. Go figure.
 
the U.S. M1903 Springfield originally had one that was also deleted as a result of WWI experience

Interesting. It is present on my '03A3, made in 1942. Must not have been all that useless.
 
Interesting. It is present on my '03A3, made in 1942. Must not have been all that useless.
Actually, it was all that useless. Just because something gets specified by hidebound, living-in-the-past ordnance bureau officers, doesn't mean that it actually gets used. Think of bayonet lugs, which persist today on infantry rifles -- yet bayonet wounds have been very uncommon since the American Civil War, and these days, bayonet charges are virtually unheard of in the military. I am aware of no actions in WWI or later in which troops used their rifles as single loaders, holding the magazine in reserve, in accordance with the army doctrine which specified the use of magazine cut offs.

Magazine cut offs are a perfect example of a phenomenon distressingly common in the military -- super conservatism. The history of the U.S. military abounds with it. We could have had breech loaders and even repeaters far more widely issued in the Civil War, but didn't because of hidebound ordnance officers who didn't appreciate their value. We could have had repeaters in the frontier era instead of single shots, but didn't because of hidebound ordnance officers who didn't appreciate their value. We had the Krag Jorgensen for a brief decade or so at the end of the 19th century because of hidebound ordnance officers who didn't appreciate the value of rate of fire, and deliberately specified a slower loading rifle, which they saw as a means of enforcing fire discipline. We could have had a true assault rifle, firing an intermediate cartridge after WWII, but didn't because of living-in-the-past army officers who refused to face the reality that most engagements were at around 300 meters (or less), and an intermediate cartridge would allow lighter weapons, controllable full auto fire, and allow more ammo to be carried, and insisted on retaining a long range cartridge that made controllable full auto fire impossible, and resulted in a heavier weapon and smaller ammo load.

Given this history, are you really surprised that a useless encumbrance like a magazine cut off might be insisted upon by a bunch of swivel chair hussars in charge of procurement, who simply are detached from the reality of field conditions?
 
Last edited:
I am aware of no actions in WWI or later in which troops used their rifles as single loaders, holding the magazine in reserve.
I'm not aware of any, either. Don't know that my (or your) lack of knowledge means that it didn't happen. Or that it did.

It does make the rifle just a touch nicer to operate in a slow-fire manner, and in the average day-to-day conditions of trench warfare (potshots at the enemy who's head appears momentarily over the berm and so forth) I think I'd have ended up using it.

Whether anyone really ever did is hard to say.
 
I'm not aware of any, either. Don't know that my (or your) lack of knowledge means that it didn't happen. Or that it did.
It certainly doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened. But what I think it does mean is that any such actions were extremely rare, and in the vast majority of instances, soldiers just shot their magazines empty and reloaded whether they were firing rapidly or slowly.

The only advantage to the magazine cut off is entirely theoretical: an enforced fire discipline that never actually seems to be used under wartime conditions. And the disadvantage is entirely practical: an extra mechanical complication added to the rifle that needlessly increases per unit cost, and consequently, soon gets dropped as a matter of production expediency during any real emergency.
 
The only advantage to the magazine cut off is entirely theoretical: an enforced fire discipline that never actually seems to be used under wartime conditions.

My point is that the advantage ISN'T only theoretical. When firing prolonged strings of slow-fire, I find the mag cut-off to be a nice feature. It keeps be from having to snap every round down into the mag feed lips to keep the next round (or the magazine follower) from popping up in the way. It's a minor convenience, but I like it.

Whether a soldier taking pot shots across no-man's land would bother is debatable, but I probably would.

Certainly something that could be deleted if the design or production process needed to be simplified.
 
"...practical function was to encourage aimed fire..." It was on No. 1's because the Brit generals thought the troopies would waste ammo without it. They were still thinking in terms of Napoleonic Wars tactics. Musketry vs rifle fire. The realities of W.W. I battles made it go away. Put back because of drastically reduced budgets after the war.
"...Hussars..." Hussars are cavalry. Haig was cavalry. Kitchener was an engineer.
"...repeaters in the frontier era instead of single shots..." Political decision. Just like the adoption of the M14 and M16.
 
"...Hussars..." Hussars are cavalry. Haig was cavalry. Kitchener was an engineer.
Don't be so literal. One can use the expression, without referring only to cavalry, just as one can use similar expressions like "chairborne ranger" without referring only to elite infantry, or "mall ninja" without referring only to feudal Japanese assassins.
"...repeaters in the frontier era instead of single shots..." Political decision. Just like the adoption of the M14 and M16.
Do you really think the input of army ordnance officers was ignored when making this decision? Do you really think that input of army ordnance officers was ignored when procuring the M14? If so, think again. I'd recommend reading "The Great Rifle Controversy" by Edward Ezell, which is all about the procurement process that led to the adoption of the M14, and then later the M16. It perfectly relates the conservatism to which I was referring.
 
"...ignored when making this decision..." Yep. The FAL beat the M14 in every test except accuracy. The M14 was adopted because it was American. The M16 was adopted because MacNamara's 'Think Tank' wanted it. In both cases, both the 7.62 and 5.56 were then jammed down other NATO country's throats with an 'Adopt it or we'll pull out of NATO' threat. There were several European countries working on cartridges better suited to European battlefields than a .30 cal cartridge that is just a .30-06 in a shorter case.
The Ordnance Board only makes recommendations. The politicians control the purse strings and have the final say. Same thing happened when the Trapdoor was adopted. Far more corruption in the 19th Century though.
 
"...ignored when making this decision..." Yep.
Then you're wrong. Period.

Seriously, how do you think we ended up with the 7.62x51mm cartridge? Remember, it's not just the rifle we're talking about here, but the cartridge. Why do you think the army specified the 7.62x51mm caliber -- basically just a slightly shortened .30-06 that paid lip service to the idea of an intermediate cartridge -- and refused to consider a truly intermediate round comparable to the British .280? Do you think it was a congressional committee or bunch of government bureaucrats who made that decision? No, it was for precisely the reason I said: hidebound, backward-looking military officers who refused to consider the intermediate cartridge, and insisted on trying to shoehorn an old-fashioned, full power cartridge into the assault rifle concept. These military personnel were the ones who then influenced the politicians in Washington to force the other NATO countries to toe the line on the issue of the standard cartridge, but it was the conservative military brasshats, not the politicians, who specified what they wanted in the way of cartridge and rifle combo, so to assert that their input was ignored is simply ludicrous.

The FAL beat the M14 in every test except accuracy. The M14 was adopted because it was American. The M16 was adopted because MacNamara's 'Think Tank' wanted it. In both cases, both the 7.62 and 5.56 were then jammed down other NATO country's throats with an 'Adopt it or we'll pull out of NATO' threat. There were several European countries working on cartridges better suited to European battlefields than a .30 cal cartridge that is just a .30-06 in a shorter case.
The Ordnance Board only makes recommendations. The politicians control the purse strings and have the final say. Same thing happened when the Trapdoor was adopted. Far more corruption in the 19th Century though.
You're simply not looking at the whole picture. As stated above, it's not just the rifle, it's the cartridge also.

And why do you think the T47 design, which became M14 was adopted over the T25 (which was, after all, another American design), or the AR10 (yet another American design), both of which outperformed the T47/M14? The answer is that both the T25 and the AR10 were odd-looking, futuristic designs, which displeased the conservative ordnance officers. Why do you think the military fitted the M14 with a conventional, drop-type stock, when it was also tested with a straight-line stock that gave superior control, especially in full auto fire? The answer, again, is that that resulted in an odd-looking, futuristic design, which displeased the conservative ordnance officers -- not politicians, military officers.

Once again, I suggest you read Ezell's book; it's clear you haven't. The fact that the FN rifle was foreign was not quite the obstacle you seem to think -- we'd adopted foreign rifles before, after all: the Krag, the M1903 (basically a Mauser -- we even had to pay the Germans a royalty for every Springfield we made), the M1917 (basically a Mauser with a British accent). The M14 was favored because it was a product of the Springfield Armory, which was a U.S. military arsenal. In other words, the army adopted it because it was produced by their arsenal, and skewed tests against both foreign designs like the FN, and American designs like the AR10 that were not "in-house."

And while we did indeed jam the 7.62mm down NATO's collective throat, the 5.56mm was not adopted because the U.S. military threatened "Adopt it or we'll pull out of NATO," we adopted the 5.56mm in the 1960s, and European countries kept the 7.62mm until the 1980s. There is no evidence that we planned pulling out of NATO during the Reagan era because Europe was reluctant to adopt the 5.56mm
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top