Road Rage Incident over the weekend

[Treo]

The difference between chemical weapons & most insecticides I usually only one of degree. I would really , really think twice before deliberately spraying that in someone's face.

 

[bdickens]

If someone is trying to do me in, I really have no problem with spraying anything in his face: pepper spray, oven cleaner, or lead for that matter. Whatever I have to do to protect myself is what I have to do.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

When I have to use my horn, I give it a very quick, short double-beep. I find this seems to be very clearly an attention-getting signal, and seems to be least likely to upset somebody, especially if coupled with a smile and wave when they make eye contact.

I also find a cell phone to be a great de-escalator in road rage cases. As soon as I get on it, and the other person can see me giving a description of their car, license plate, driver, etc, they pretty much always de-escalate their behavior, and either slink back several cars behind me, or exit the highway first opportunity they can.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

If I was carrying and got backed into a corner (I.E. no way to drive away safely) I would be hesitant to stay in the car. If the person has a firearm you are a sitting duck. A car isn't cover, it is concealment.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

 

[rainbowbob]

ArrogantBastard posted the following link to a fascinating demonstration of what happens when you shoot from a car - and into a car. Check it out!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

This is a summary of what they concluded:

So what is the bottom line of the Buick O' Truth?

1. You do NOT want to be in the passenger compartment of a vehicle when someone opens up on it with a firearm.

As I was at Blackwater this week, my dentist was driving from his home with his wife to go to dinner when their jackass neighbor opened up on their vehicle with a firearm. His wife is dead and he is still in the intensive care unit on a vent at UVA.

If someone starts shooting at you while you are in a vehicle, get the hell out of there NOW. Hit the accelerator and if you have to run the bastard over, do it.

A car provides little in the way of cover, but it DOES give you the power to move fast which makes you harder to hit. Use that to your advantage.

2. If you cannot move, you CAN fight from inside the vehicle. By "fight" I do not mean that you can set up camp and shoot it out with the badguys from inside the vehicle. I mean that you can open fire on the bad guys so they are at least getting some incoming rounds while you try to escape.

3. If your vehicle cannot move, GET AWAY FROM IT ASAP. You have about 8 seconds to get away from the vehicle before your chances of survival are nill. As you can see from the Buick O' Truth, it doesn't take much to punch through the sides of a car with bullets.

A determined adversary with some ammo can turn your "cover" into a death trap in seconds. If your vehicle cannot move, you are better off getting away from the vehicle and going prone to return effective fire than you are holding up behind the vehicle waiting to get shot.

"But...That is leaving my only cover!" I can hear someone object.

Firstly, the Buick O' Truth isn't cover. It is a gigantic bullet magnet, and if you are hiding behind it you are more likely to end up shot than you are to use it effectively for cover. Real life engagements have shown that bad guys tend to focus on and shoot the hell out of the vehicle, and that if the good guys can get away from the vehicle and get prone that they are able to return fire effectively while the bad guys remain fixated on the vehicle.

4. If you must shoot into the passenger compartment of a vehicle, it is almost impossible to predict what will happen to the bullet or the people inside that passenger compartment.

When I said that there were bullet jackets and fragments everywhere, I meant it. Your bullet could penetrate through two people and keep going out the trunk, or it could be so damaged by entering the vehicle that it doesn't have the energy to break the skin of the person you are trying to stop, and the difference between those two outcomes can be 1/4 of an inch.

5. Shooting stuff is fun.

6. Shooting stuff isn't as much fun when you start to picture yourself inside a vehicle that you have just turned into swiss cheese. It takes some of the fun out of things to realize just how exposed you are. In fact, it is darn scary to see the passenger compartment shredded with chunks of bullet lying all over the place.

 

[LAK]

Regarding oven cleaner - just treat items that might cause permanent injury or death as .. deadly force. As you would a firearm, knife - or impact weapon used in a manner considered deadly force.

Same would go for using your vehicle as a weapon.

A small fire extinguisher might be another good choice for something like this.

I have a Kimber Lifeact "Guardian Angel" pepper dispenser and like it very much.

When you call for the police dial 911; all 911 calls are recorded, so there is an instant audio recording of the incident that can be entered into evidence. Choose yours words addressing your antagonist carefully, speak loud and clearly.

 

[coloradokevin]

These things are really coming up more and more these days.

Had an issue myself coming home from work last night on the highway... some guy tries to pass me on the right shoulder, so I move to the middle lane to avoid him. He then swerves all the way to the left lane, and cuts me off in the process to the point that I thought I was going to hit him. He then swerves back into my lane, nearly hitting me again.

I flashed my lights (probably shouldn't have), as I slowed down to leave some distance between us.

He starts swerving back and forth across the lanes, brake checks a time or two, then slows down and pulls in behind me.

Follows me for a few miles aggressively, then suddenly pulls off onto the shoulder of the road... I just kept driving. I don't know what his issue was, and was too tired to care.

My situation was a bit different than the OP's. I was driving home from work in full uniform, and was still armed (he couldn't have seen any of this with the way my car is setup). I had a radio at my disposal, and could have quickly gained sufficient cover cars if the situation escalated. Fortunately, in my case, the guy decided to pull himself off of my ass before my exit, and the situation was defused without further complication.

But, I can appreciate your predicament all the same.

My only legal advice would be to remember that you need to have a fairly overt threat before you draw your weapon. You don't want the situation spun by the attacker to say that he just yelled some dirty words at you, and you felony menaced him in return (even if that wasn't the case, keep the appearance on your side as much as you can).

Personally, I wouldn't draw my weapon until I had no other reasonable choice... But, I also operate in a job where I deal with physically aggressive folks on a regular basis and have to typically resolve the situations without deadly force... I try to keep this in real world perspective for the rest of society, as my wife often reminds me that she would go to her gun when being attacked much sooner than I would (for good reason).

 

[kentucky_Dave]

Here’s another good one.
I am on a four lane road (two each way) with a 25~30’ grass median, minding my own business at a reasonable speed.
I attempt to change lanes, signal and all and some jackass floors it to prohibit me from getting over.
Such a nice guy, but I let it roll off…happens all the time here.

+/- A mile later the jackass has slowed down again, and I have sufficient room, so I signal and change lanes.
A few seconds later here’s the jackass in the grass to my left blowing the horn about to wreck himself.
I know for certain I cleared him with plenty of room, but apparently I am supposed to keep out of his way, and he is obviously willing to try to be Dale Earnhardt to pass me.

I assume that an emergency must have come up, and he now has urgent matters (read dripping with sarcasm), so I accelerate rapidly, and move over to let him move on.
NOPE…he wants something.

I cannot see the driver at all with his limo tint, all I can gather is there is a huge vehicle with an obscured driver making aggressive gestures via the movement of his vehicle toward me.
I keep an eye on him, allow plenty of room for him to move on, yet he persists.
I make a turn and accelerate in a normal manor, sure enough, here’s my buddy right on my tail…then he does the dumb move of the month,…passes me wildly, gets in front of me and jams the brakes.
Well, I have a lighter vehicle with better brakes, so I stop with 20 feet between us.
It is obvious that this person is planning to be a hero, so I “Rack ‘em up”, lock it, and place it on the console…just in case.

So…here comes the Darwin award winner just past the rear corner of his truck…about half the distance between the two vehicles, I drive off…lol…this guy is a complete idiot…
I call the local PD dispatchers to inform them of the situation and that I am taking steps to avoid defending myself from this whack job, and they inform me of the nearest unit I can meet up with.
Great, just a couple blocks away.

I pull up next to the unit, exit the truck and approach his vehicle.
“May I request your assistance” I ask…and NO response.
I look closer…wait a second, this looks like a mannequin…great…here comes jackass number one…

Here’s the fun part…
Hero jumps out of his van, still moving and grinding into park and moves swiftly toward me.
The funny part was the change in his demeanor as he got closer.
So, my posture changed slightly as he approached, but I think the biggest factor was that this idiot realized that I was significantly larger that he was, and he was fixing to receive a beating.
Fear in his eyes for sure…lol
Then, to my surprise, the window on the patrol car rolls down…the cop was snoozing…lol
He was a cool guy. I explained the situation to him, outlined the measures I had taken to spare this idiot any pain or new piercings and listened to the “Story” as delivered by bonehead number one.
The cops response was classic…”At least nobody has any new holes” as he turns his head toward my new friend.
He detained the knucklehead as I left, and hopefully explained to him just how close his actions got him to being seriously injured or losing his life.

We don’t have to retreat here in Florida, but I feel that I should at least attempt to do so unless there is no alternative.
He is lucky it was a person like me.

All of that said, I just dont understand what makes people so crazy when they are driving.

 

[Treo]

I had an incident in Tacoma one night. Guy decided I cut him off pulled up next to me started cussing me out, yelling , yada , yada , yada. I sped up he followed me at that point I decided to just slow down & let him go, it was the biggest mistake I made during the incident. Once in front of me he started trying to cause me to rear end him. Mind you this was at 3 in the morning on I-5 no other cars on the road. We ended up going about 25 mph down the interstate until he passed an exit & I took it , at that point the maniac drove up the embankment after me. Long story short I pulled into a gas station to call the cops when golden boy followed me in the attendant picked up a baseball bat & the last we saw of golden boy he was gettin' the hell outa dodge.

I said all that to say this, the biggest mistake I made was letting that guy infront of me I had the faster car ('91 Geo Storm vs. '85 Dodge Aspen) I should have just got away from him.

If such happened today IF AT ALL POSSIBLE I would not let that car in front of me.

Tacoma P.D. was of no assistance at all , they got there after golden boy left ( no suprise). He took off so fast that he left his passenger ( who Tacoma P.D. refused to apprehend). We gave T.P.D, make, model, color and license plate & they didn't even bother to follow up.

When seconds count , Tacoma P.D. really doesn't care

 

[rainbowbob]

I had a radio at my disposal, and could have quickly gained sufficient cover cars if the situation escalated...I don't know what his issue was, and was too tired to care.

ColoradoKevin:
I assume from your narrative that you are an LEO. I don't mean to criticize - but I am surprised you did not immediately call for back-up. Perhaps he was having a heart attack - although it sounds more like drunk/drugs/psychotic (take your pick). The fact that your were tired undoubtedly had a lot to do with it. As a civilian, I would have called 911 and kept driving. Does your profession prevent you from doing the same - or are you required to remain on the scene?

 

[rainbowbob]

Tacoma P.D. was of no assistance at all , they got there after golden boy left ( no suprise). He took off so fast that he left his passenger ( who Tacoma P.D. refused to apprehend). We gave T.P.D, make, model, color and license plate & they didn't even bother to follow up...When seconds count , Tacoma P.D. really doesn't care...

Treo:
You seem to find it hard to resist the opportunity to dump on a PD.

When you say you aren't surprised they didn't show up until after the jerk disappeared, you insinuate they should have somehow magically showed up before you called them.

Then you criticize them for not apprehending the jerk's stranded passenger who, as far as we can tell from your story, did not break any laws.

You go further to insinuate that the entire Tacoma Police Force "doesn't care" because these particular officers didn't go racing after someone who had been involved in what, from their POV, was a traffic incident for which you had no corroborating witness.

I realize such an incident is frightening and frustrating. But do you think it is possible the TPD may have also had other fish to fry that night?

My understanding is that in Pierce County (where this occurred) LEOs go off shift with hundreds of unanswered calls pending. The dispatchers attempt to prioritize these calls as best they can - but the system is overwhelmed. There are simply not enough LEOs to cover all the calls they recieve.

I've been told by LEOs (in Pierce County) that citizens MUST be prepared to defend themselves for that reason.

 

[coloradokevin]

I assume from your narrative that you are an LEO. I don't mean to criticize - but I am surprised you did not immediately call for back-up. Perhaps he was having a heart attack - although it sounds more like drunk/drugs/psychotic (take your pick). The fact that your were tired undoubtedly had a lot to do with it. As a civilian, I would have called 911 and kept driving. Does your profession prevent you from doing the same - or are you required to remain on the scene?

Honestly, it was a combination of factors, and I completely understand what you are saying.

First, I was still driving through my city, and I know that we were up to our ass in aligators all shift... As such, I really didn't want to take cars out of service to help me with a fairly minor incident (when they were already backed up on calls).

Plus, there would have been an expectation for me to stick around in that situation, which wasn't really appealling after 10 hours of BS during the shift... and the fact that it would probably have taken a car a few minutes to catch up with me, which would have landed us in another jurisdiction, involving a second agency (my stated "quick" response is a relative term. In short, I didn't want to make a mountain out of mole hill, involving a response from an entire metro area!)

Normally we get so many of these calls that our dispatch just BOLOs these deals anyway (ie: "All cars be on the lookout for an aggressive driver tailgating and passing on the shoulder, driving X direction on Y street"). With the continued aggressive behavior of this driver, a car would have been dispatched, but again the other factors held me back a bit.

So, I just let it go.


Still, I can sympathize with the OP. Seems like there are a lot of hot-heads on the road these days, and we all get to deal with them!

 

[Treo]

You seem to find it hard to resist the opportunity to dump on a PD

Ya think?

When you say you aren't surprised they didn't show up until after the jerk disappeared, you insinuate they should have somehow magically showed up before you called them.

No I was actually commenting on what's commonly said here the cops show up after it's all over to take information

Then you criticize them for not apprehending the jerk's stranded passenger who, as far as we can tell from your story, did not break any laws.

Sorry, he was yelling and screaming right along w/his homie shoulda made that clear

You go further to insinuate that the entire Tacoma Police Force "doesn't care" because these particular officers didn't go racing after someone who had been involved in what, from their POV, was a traffic incident for which you had no corroborating witness.

Unless of course you count the passenger, the gas station attendant who had to chase dude out of the station w/ a ball bat or the 911 call

I

realize such an incident is frightening and frustrating. But do you think it is possible the TPD may have also had other fish to fry that night?

Do you realize that as a citizen I had every right to file a complaint and have my complaint investigated?

 

[plexreticle]

People who road rage are missing something in their lives. It's a sign of depression and all to common.

 

[scottgun]

I have found that if someone gets angry over annoying jerks out on the road, there will be an endless source of anger because there's no shortage of annoying jerks (or whatever phrase you choose to use).

My mantra is that other drivers may be annoying jerks, but they won't ruin my day. Letting them shape my mood puts them in control. (My 2c psychology advice for the day.)

 

[rainbowbob]

Treo:

You had the misfortune of being confronted by a couple of maniacs who thought they had a beef with you. I feel your pain and have also had similar experiences.

But it seems unreasonable to suggest that the PD should arrest the passenger for "yelling and screaming". It also doesn't seem likely that the passenger was going to help you out by corroborating your story. The gas station attendant could not corroborate your story because he did not witness the driver's behavior - other than what occurred at the station.

Of course you have a right to file a complaint with the expectation it be followed up on. But expecting the PD to engage in a high speed chase to catch up with said jerk based only on your complaint is probably not realistic - especially if it was a busy night. And it's my understanding that it is always a busy night for Tacoma PD. Concluding that the entire department "doesn't care" because you didn't get the response you had hoped for seems a little harsh.

 

[Treo]

Of course you have a right to file a complaint with the expectation it be followed up on. But expecting the PD to engage in a high speed chase to catch up with said jerk based only on your complaint is probably not realistic - especially if it was a busy night. And it's my understanding that it is always a busy night for Tacoma PD. Concluding that the entire department "doesn't care" because you didn't get the response you had hoped for seems a little harsh.

They didn't need to get involved in a high speed chase, they had an accurate description of the car, including the full license plate number all they had to do was run it and go pick the guy up, how's that unreasonable?

 

[zxcvbob]

They didn't need to get involved in a high speed chase, they had an accurate description of the car, including the full license plate number all they had to do was run it and go pick the guy up, how's that unreasonable?

How about he has cooled off and is driving reasonably by the time the cops catch him? Before you answer that, think about this: Imagine the roadrager idiot calls 911 and reports *you* as the one screaming and cursing and tried to run him off the road. What do you expect the cops to do if/when they come looking for you? How is it any different?

 

[cracked butt]

I doubt its a good tactic or if it does anything to diffuse the situation, but when people get angry enough at me in traffic to pull along side me and yell or flip the bird, I give them the big retarded guy smile and wave.

I've been told that I'm good at pushing people's buttons.....

 

[moooose102]

well, oven cleaner i believe is lye. if that is the case, oh baby, that would HURT!

second, using the horn in the manner you did was fine. chances are this guy was already locked and cocked, just waining for somebody or thing to trip his switch.

third, you did wait to long to call the police, BUT, chances are, they could not have assisted you that fast anyway.

fourth, your car can and will make a very fine self defense tool. one thing you could do in a situation like this (assuming you could keep you composure) would be to use it to trap the person against an imobil object, such as a gaurd rail, cement barrier, another car door, etc.

fifth, as for drawing the weapon, i would have it ready BEFORE he got to your window. if and when he broke it, then, and only then, should you fire. it is your LAST line of defense. anything else, could get you put into prison. sad, but true.

i think that a higher power was watching over you, your wife, and unborn child that day. you did ok, with a little help from above.

training for situations like that would be great, if you find a place that can prepare you for REAL WORLD encounters like the one you described, GO FOR IT!!!

 

[rainbowbob]

They didn't need to get involved in a high speed chase, they had an accurate description of the car, including the full license plate number all they had to do was run it and go pick the guy up, how's that unreasonable?

zxcvbob beat me to it and said it better:

How about he has cooled off and is driving reasonably by the time the cops catch him? Before you answer that, think about this: Imagine the roadrager idiot calls 911 and reports *you* as the one screaming and cursing and tried to run him off the road. What do you expect the cops to do if/when they come looking for you? How is it any different?