Road Rage Incident over the weekend

[XDKingslayer]

Its all about intended use...

I agree that the oven cleaner spray is a bad idea. We have permits to carry a gun, and defending ourselves against a deadly threat is the intended purpose. Unless someone attacks you while cleaning your oven, using over cleaner is just bad idea. Pepper spray is intended as a less than lethal defensive tool, so spraying that on an attacker is using it for its intended purpose.

Also mentioned, carrying an axe handle in your car. This is illegal in most places. Carrying a tire iron in the car isn't, however using for purposes other than chaning your tire usually is. Getting pulled over and having the officer see a bludgeoning weapon could be trouble.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that. Defending yourself is defending yourself. I don't care what you do it with. You do it with what you have available be it a gun, pepper spray, your hands, a tree branch or a can of oven cleaner.

Let me get this straight using your logic. If someone is raping a woman and all she has is a can of oven cleaner, she should simply let the guy rape her out of fear for being sued?

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

 

[blackcash88]

legal, unregulated and at your local super market: oven cleaner in a spray can.
been used by women in the inner-city's for years against those who get in their face. unlike pepper sprays, even hop-heads cant power through it.

Hmmm...interesting... I might have to throw a can of that 25 ft streaming wasp spray in my car.

 

[blackcash88]

Getting pulled over and having the officer see a bludgeoning weapon could be trouble.

Well that sucks for little Johnny's mom when she's driving him to a t-ball game.

 

[Harvster]

XDKingslayer-

What we are referring to is purposely carrying a can of oven cleaner in your car instead of something like mace or pepper spray. Also there are more acceptable methods of defending yourself. For example if you have a handgun and a carry permit and you are forced to defend yourself it is different than if you decide to make yourself some home made grenades and use those. They will play differently in court.

 

[scottgun]

By all means, use what ever is available for self defense. But, oven cleaner is caustic and will leave permanent injuries and or blindness.

An affirmative defense for a self defense shooting (or in this case, a self defense spraying) must be beyond reproach. This isn't meeting force with a matching level of force. By this logic, you could also use gasoline and a lighter to defend yourself.

Why not use the right tool for the job. If no other tools are available, then sure, use what ever is at your disposal. But it is pretty "ghetto" using over cleaner for defense spray, and if used, you would probably be treated as such.

The following paragraph is posted on several sites on the interweb.
Some people in high-crime "gun control" zones like Washington, D.C. and other U.S. cities have taken to carrying cans of aerosol spray oven cleaner (potassium or sodium hydroxide, a powerful caustic agent) because the laws in these localities deny them the right to carry a non-toxic pepper spray, or any other effective means of self-defense. This illustrates precisely the type of "weapon substitution" effect that opponents of "gun control" argue will occur if any particular class of weapons, such as "Saturday Nite Specials," is banned. People who are determined to have weapons, whether they are honest citizens defending against crime, or criminals obtaining the tools of their trade, will find a way around any ban, and will often end up having a deadlier weapon that the one that has been banned. (After all, if someone is breaking the law anyway, it matters little whether they break it to carry a "Saturday Nite Special" or a sawed-off shotgun or machine gun.) Oven cleaner can cause permanent damage and/or blindness, and aside from the child-resistant cap (which would make the can difficult to use in emergency situations), oven cleaner cans lack the safety mechanisms which are found on many tear gas or pepper spray containers to prevent accidental discharge. Its permanent and harmful effects may also be used by prosecutors to prejudice a jury, moreso even than if the defender had used a gun! There's very little chance that banning oven cleaner will occur, since the only localities which have this "problem" are the ones which deny their good citizens any other means to protect themselves.

 

[jackdanson]

If I was carrying and got backed into a corner (I.E. no way to drive away safely) I would be hesitant to stay in the car. If the person has a firearm you are a sitting duck. A car isn't cover, it is concealment. (except behind the axles and engine obviously) Most people would find it awkward firing from within the car also, it's not something most of us practice. I wish I could but I don't think my local range would want me rolling my car up to the stall.

Anyway I would try to park drivers side away from BG, get out, present firearm, and use the car as cover. They would probably change their mind right quick like. I weigh 150, I'm not getting in a fist/pepperspray/knife fight with someone who follows me until I have no place to go, at that point I would already have the police on the phone and my firearm ready.

 

[blackcash88]

But it is pretty "ghetto" using over cleaner for defense spray, and if used, you would probably be treated as such.

Um, that's what Claude Cay was getting at when he mentioned "inner city" women who can't get a CCW because of the cost or it's impossible. Chicago, NYC, etc.

With all the talk of running the guy over, I'm pretty sure that's "unintended use" of a car, too.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

carb cleaner or brake cleaner work best in a car . i know for sure carb cleaner disabled me. never sprayed myself with brake clean yet.
one way i improved with fatherhood is my goals changed.i want out in one piece noadays less ego involved in "showing him" back in my cab driving days we sharpened out tire irons and kept em under seat for tire iron fu

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

bennadatto,

You did well and your "Gut Instincts" were excellent. As far as dealing with this wierdo, the only thing I could suggest is that when he pulled along side you, you just held up your hand, waved and smiled - as in "It's over...forget about it".

Other than that, I can't think of any training anyone could give you...I think you've go it down pat.

Good Work.

NASCAR

PS...I've been where you've been, and had happen to me what happened to you. (My mileage may vary, everyone's situation is a bit different) Except for a few crazies, Georgia is generally a very nice place.

 

[Big Boomer]

I could be wrong here but, knowingly using a chemical for something other than its intended use to cause bodily harm, in most states that I know of, is a felony.

 

[jackdanson]

I think people are saying, if you have the option between carb cleaner and pepper spray, use pepper spray, if you have no other option use whatever is available....

 

[evan price]

Treo: I would be really hesitant to let some body get that close to my car, I had people get that close before & it seems that once they get that close you're kinda boxed in.

Given the guy has threatened to kill me & is moving in my direction I'd draw the line 10 feet around my car. he gets that close I present.

Ten feet? While you're inside your car? Are you kidding? Why not 20 feet? Or 50?

Laws vary state to state but typically, lacking some overt actual threat to your life, pointing a gun at someone who is ten feet away from your car is going to get you in trouble.

Typically, in most roadrage incidents I've seen, experienced, or witnessed, presenting a gun usually just gets a "I ain't afraid of your gun!" response, bearing in mind the perp is so jacked up in his enraged state, he won't care.

Best defense is to drive away. Even if boxed in traffic, a car is a 3000 lb battering ram. Best is to not allow yourself to get boxed in, even if you have to make a detour to turn right on red instead of waiting for a left turn. Keep moving.

 

[Geno]

My wife and I had a similar event a bit over a year ago. The other driver intentionally rearended us. While he and his passenger were screaming something, I couldn't hear exactly what they said. Also, they did not exit their car. That fact would have changed the situation. My wife was not pregnant, and our daughter not with us. Those circumstances would have changed the situation.

While I was carrying, the other driver fled the scene. I was on the cellular immediately and giving the dispatcher the license plate number. The other driver was found (next day), and prosecuted.

Items to always have: common sense, a cellular phone, a handgun.

 

[TylerDurden]

I'm in a cynical mood this morning...

Hey, I am sure that horns prevent many injuries and accidents.

I also bet that they are used in every road rage incident, in some manner.

That sounds dangerous.

The horns are causing the eminent road ragers to loose control of their actions.

Therefore, only police officers should carry them.

 

[alsaqr]

"legal, unregulated and at your local super market: oven cleaner in a spray can.
been used by women in the inner-city's for years against those who get in their face. unlike pepper sprays, even hop-heads cant power through it."



Bingo!!! When we lived in WV, I used to teach self defense as a part of rape prevention. Gave each of the ladies a can of Easy Off with a stream nozzle.

Got a call from a LEO in southern WV. He said that he just wanted to talk with the guy who told ladies to hose down attackers with Easy Off. One of my students was attacked and she responded with Easy Off. Blinded the guy in one eye and caused his face to run.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

the wasp sprays shoot long range

 

[Claude Clay]

government mandated weapons in every car

one for each passenger: seat belt buckles. with the drivers window more than half down, slip your left hand between your body and the belt (keeps your arm from getting tangled in the belts 'V') , unlatch the buckle and as the BG sticks any part of his body into you vehicle, you pivot your elbow and flex your wrist such that the metal buckle meets his head smartly. as he is 'staggered', help him to the ground by swiftly opening your car door. by now it may be his desire to be elsewhere; but you want him to stay...
"officer, in the excitement i didn't realize my foot slipped off of the brake pedal and the car rolled over his legs.....how tragic."

 

[rainbowbob]

First thing I wouldn't have done is honk the horn.

You used the horn for the purpose it was indended for: to prevent an inattentive driver from hitting your vehicle.

Let me tell you a little trick that has worked for me many times. Not guaranteed - but often very effective. I learned it many years ago as a temp driver for UPS in their driver orientation class.

Whenever you use your horn - toot it (as you did) - and don't lean on it. When the driver looks at you - you are looking back at him with a smile and a wave (as if he was an old friend).

He will probably think he knows you, or at least he'll think that you think you know him.

At the very least, he will be more befuddled than pissed.

It is amazing how efective this technique is in defusing a potential road-rage situation.

 

[edman]

I would have kindly asked my wife to plug her ears.

No really, using the car to either get away, or run him over would be the first choice.

Depending on the situation, I might have let him break the window before shooting, but I would have shot if I couldn't get away. Good bye on some hearing though.

Good advice rainbowbob, I'll use it in the future.

 

[mekender]

oven cleaner has no normal place inside a car, if you ever had to use it as a defensive weapon, that could be construed as intent...

however, carburetor cleaner is a car related item and is perhaps more caustic than oven cleaner... and having gotten some sprayed in my eyes by accident before, i can attest that it burns like the dickens...

 

[retgarr]

I'd think carrying oven cleaner especially in a locality were oc or mace is legal would be bad stuff. I don't think you would be charged with anything, however I think there is a chance of them collecting. "why did they use the permanently disabling oven spray? There are plenty of temporary chemicals out there!"

 

[kentucky_Dave]

With my last truck (a much smaller Toyota) I had many incidents where the morons assumed they were better people, based (as I assume) on the size of my vehicle.
I've had 'em cut me off; randomly choose me as the car they screwed with that day in tight traffic, etc.
I let most of it roll off, but a few really stood out.

One incident, this guy decided that I was not to pass him by any means.
There were three lanes available, myself and this jackass.
As I attempted to pass him (he was going extremely slow) he decided to accelerate rapidly and proceed into my lane.
I thought, OK, I'll slow and let him over, but that's not what he wanted.
As soon as I let off, he moved back to the center lane and slowed to my speed again, just ahead of me.
Once again, I try to reach the speed limit, he pulls it again.
"Hmmm...I wonder if I know this guy..."
This continues for a bit, so I decide to pull a switch-up on him, as he comes over, I hit the brakes and went to pass in the far left of the three lanes, and wouldn’t you know it, he almost flipped his truck trying to make certain I did not pass him.
So now it is completely obvious that he has a mental problem, and I am obviously complicating his issues.

I have done nothing wrong, never seen his vehicle before, and from what I could gather through the windows / mirrors, he looked unfamiliar to me.
He is being certain to match my speed with his rear bumper near my front, no matter how slow or fast, and absolutely determined to not allow me to pass him or slow to let him move on.
At this point I am getting pretty frustrated myself, and just my luck, the light ahead begins to change to red.
I let off completely and let this idiot stop and then simply roll past him.
The roadway that intersects my path is at a slight angle, where one vehicle will stop slightly forward of the adjacent ones. This places me slightly ahead of this goon, and that pisses him off even more...apparently...

I turn and get a look at him, and at that point he realized that I am not the little person he expected.
His eyes get huge, he jumps out of his truck and grabs a 2x4 out of the back (beer cans rolling out of the cab)
"You got a problem with me" he yells.
I could only laugh and shake my head.
What kind of moron can put on such a display of toughness behind the wheel but cannot back up his macho without his 2x4?
(I am carrying, but with my construction experience and having more than 2x4’s come my way by much larger people, it is obvious I will not need to add any piercings to him)
I replied "Yup" just to see what he'd do, and sure enough, the nutcase froze up and stood there with a bewildered look on his face.
I assume I was supposed to be frightened by his display of aggression, and when I didn’t cower I think he sh** himself a little.

Anyway, about that time the light changed and I went about my drive home with this idiot left standing in the road with a board.
Dipshi* did attempt to tailgate me for a short while, but finally decided to give it up.
What class.

What I am trying to convey is: Many of the people today use the vehicle as an extension of their displeasure with their sick little debt ridden existence.
They are mad at the world and use their vehicles to express it to whomever may be around.
Take away their cars and they don’t act that way at all.
I saw they guy again a few weeks later in public, stood right next to him, and he had NOTHING to say.
That's funny right there!

 

[rainbowbob]

Good advice rainbowbob, I'll use it in the future.

See post #40.

The other thing I learned in the UPS driver orientation is to constantly move your eyes from mirror to windshield to mirror and back - always having at least one "out" available whenever possible if things go bad. In other words, be aware of what's going on around you and avoid getting boxed in.

That goes along with one poster's Dad's advice to leave enough room for the other driver to make a jackass out of himself.

 

[crankshop1000]

A perfect example of why I store a hidden, but ready 1911 in my truck.Don't leave home without it.

 

[Fisherman_48768]

Throw a can of Raid: Wasp and Hornet spray in the car. It will shoot a stream about 20', Really screws with the insects (vermin)eyes, nose, mouth and lungs.