please critique my road rage incident

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gunsmith

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One of my co-workers was robbed at gun point (for a pizza) :uhoh:

Two days ago, so I have been a bit more alert then my usual "alertedness"
(yellow? orange? what are those codes again?)

a guy in a PU truck was moving kinda slow and I passed him.

Then he guns his motor and races up behind me at the stop light stops short inches from my rear bumper and starts giving me the finger.
he did this for the whole duration of the red light. I looked at him and then stopped paying attention to him . After I made my turn he pulled up to me in the left lane screaming obscenities at me and pointing to my car top (pizza company logo) and mime ing threats to call.

I finally replied with the international "your crazy" hand signal (you know twirling my finger around pointing at my head ) while saying "your crazy"

I was keeping my window rolled up so I guess he understood what I meant.

he then proved his insanity by trying to force me off the road.
I swerved onto the sidewalk to avoid a collision and tried to get out of there (I was only over the curb for a half a minute, but thank God no trees or kids were there) I sped up to leave and he started following me, I drove around in circles but being a residential neighborhood I decided to pull over because we were near a rec center and children were all over the place.

I stayed in my car and unzipped my fanny pack (where my sp101 lives)
and called 911 As he approached my car I saw that he didn't have any weapons in my hand and I got out of my car so I could see the street signs
and tell 911 dispatch where I was... he was yelling enough that the dispatcher heard him the guy finally realized I was on the phone with the cops when I was telling them his plate # and truck colors model

he got into his truck and left rather then wait for the police, I have a case number and was told to call after 4 biz days.

I think my two mistakes were engageing the nitwit and when I got out of the truck I zipped my fanny pack closed because he was unarmed (but it got his attention and he didn't get near me ) I think he got a hint I was armed because of the fanny pack and the NRA and gun bumper stickers all over the back of my truck
 
I never understand why people do this. Happened to me before. Someone is going 40 in a 55, so when a clear spot comes up, I turn on my signal, pass them, and drive the speed limit. A matter of seconds later, they're so close to my bumber that I can't see their headlights.

Do people just not like the feeling of someone passing them up? Do they associate it with that person thinking they are better than them? I have no idea. If someone wants to drive faster than me, then that's their deal. If they signal to pass me, I'll brake to make it easier for them.

Anyway, as far as the situation goes, doesn't sound like you did too bad, though it probably would have been wise to skip the whole "you're loony" thing and just continue ignoring him until he gets bored. (Of course, it's hard to say what "I'd" do if I was there, since it's impossible to know, so I'm not critiquing you or anything :)).


I decided to pull over because we were near a rec center and children were all over the place.
I stayed in my car and unzipped my fanny pack (where my sp101 lives)
and called 911 As he approached my car

Though I'm not sure if I would have stopped the car in the first place (seems like a bad idea to me), that's the point at which I would have gunned it. Let him get up somewhat far away from his car/truck, and just take off. He'd have to be pretty quick (and motivated) to get back in his vehicle and catch up.

It probably would have been smart to call the police, continue driving, and if he keeps following, have a cop meet you somewhere public, or drive to a police station or something.
 
They start riding your ass? Hit your brakes, and when the Ambulence arives tell them your back, and neck hurt. Next call a accident lawyer.
Takethe $25,000 + that the insurance company offers you and buy some new toys:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Kevin
 
They start riding your ass? Hit your brakes, and when the Ambulence arives tell them your back, and neck hurt.

That's a great reason to get one of those trailer hitches that sticks back ways away from your bumper.

Or better yet, get some hay spikes :evil:
 
Causing an accident on purpose, whether it can be proved or not, whether the other driver was being a bleepity-bleep or not is wrong and is a crime. Modifying your vehicle to purposefully cause extra damage to the other vehicle in the event of an accident is wrong.

Funny things to say over a beer, and road ragers sure seem deserving. I know y'all ain't serious, though.

Anyhow, all's well that ends well. Sounds like you kept your head and didn't panic, not easy to do when threatened. I think RS3RS's suggestions are good, too.
 
"I finally replied with the international "your crazy" hand signal (you know twirling my finger around pointing at my head ) while saying "your crazy"

I would suggest swallowing your pride in the future and not doing a single thing to aggravate an already aggravated, disturbed person. Might he still have tried to run you off the road? Maybe. But it's still better not to give the other person a single, tiny excuse or provocation in the event that things really do get out of hand.

In the future, just keep driving, looking straight forward, totally ignoring the person attempting to get some sort of reaction out of you.
 
It's hard to say whether you should have stopped, but you stopped in the proper way by giving yourself enough time to get ready and get out. If your car's not moving you don't want to be in it.
 
I think my two mistakes were engageing the nitwit and when I got out of the truck
You shouldn't have done anything to escalate the situation. If you thought he was loony, then that was the time to call 911. I would not have stopped nor would I have gotten out of the car. I would have tried to drive to a police station, while on the phone with the 911 operator.
 
You know, I am surprised that you guys don't have a RRB (Road Rage Bag) :neener: . I have one and in it is my emergency tear gas grenades to through in the windows of road rager’s, my Strip O'Spikes which I thrown down in front of tailgaters to blow out all tires, my oil slick gun and smoke screen. I also have an assortment of mustard, chlorine and nerve gases as well as a few patriot missiles.

For the coup degrace, I have a man size rubber chicken coated in pine tar that I can eject out the trunk on to the offenders windshield....

Dude your RRB is the only thing that will get you through it alive, so you should all get one ASAP. :neener:
 
What you saw was a example of displaced anger, this guy was really messed up inside and was just looking for someone to focus it on. A very dangerous situation, ANY return communication is just going to send them further over the edge, ie- twirling a finer in the "crazy" motion, shrugging shoulders, etc. I have seen guys actually froth at the mouth and threaten to kill they were so enraged from a percieved traffic "insult". The term of importance here is " percieved," there need be no legitimate infraction at all.
 
"I finally replied with the international "your crazy" hand signal
I've posted this before, but here I go again . . .

I don't respond to road ragers. If some idiot (This is Texas - picking a fight with a man why may have a gun IS the mark of an idiot) cusses me out, flips me the bird, or whatver, I don't respond in kind - I smile, shrug, wave, and try to make the idiot think I'm apologizing for whatever it is he thinks I did.

Mind you, what I'm thinking is very different, but as I'm licensed to carry a concealed weapon and do so whenever and wherever it's legal, I'm not going to do anything to escalate the situation. As emotionally satisfying as it may seem, I'm not going to flip him the bird, cuss him out, or anything else of that nature.

If there's escalation to the point where I may need to employ deadly force to stop the threat of serious injury or death, I'm going to make d@mn sure I didn't do anything to escalate things to that point.

I'm ready to shoot someone if it comes to that, but beforehand, 100% of the escalation will have to come from the other guy - not me.
Hit your brakes, and when the Ambulence arives tell them your back, and neck hurt. Next call a accident lawyer.
A lot of good THAT will do when the road rager is an illegal alien with no assets or insurance. :rolleyes:
 
Where's Clint Eastwood or Chuck Norris when you need him?

I have been in situtions where I was so upset that I'm so glad I had no firearm with me and the situation did not esculate to combat. It is one of the reasons that I hesitate to do the CCW thing. Took the class, but have not applied for the permit. The pemit adds a completely new level of responsibility to reacting to incidents.

A story.... I was at a rock concert in Dallas. Afterwards there was the usual traffic jam of people trying to get out of parking lots. Anwyay, traffic was all jammed up and there was a VW behind me a ways that decided to drive up a rather wide sidewalk to pass the traffic jam.... the car passed me and some guys jumped out of their car and got him stopped and proceed to yank him out of the car and beat the crap out of him.... that was satisfying.
 
I stopped because

the guy was driving extremely reckless
and children were all over, what a loser.
I hope I can press charges and get this guy in court.
 
Agree re; next time dispense with the "loony" sign. Obviously he was/is a loony, but that's all the more reason not to go out of your way to try to tee him off.

Otherwise, it seems you did pretty well.
 
Doing the crazy sign probably was extraneous. Calling the cops was a great idea. Zipping your bag closed was a bad idea - increases reaction time. Great that nobody got hurt. Idiocy can quickly escalate into lots of bullets into a dumbass that cannot read and does not know what NRA means.
 
You escalated the situation.

1.looney sign

2. no retreat but confronted.

3. got out of you vehicle. when you should have driven away.

Lucky you did not use the weapon or you would be in a world of hurt do to some moron.

When carrying swallow your pride it is not worth the penalty. When you are not able to swallow your pride you are not mature enough to carry for your own good.
 
I stayed in my car and unzipped my fanny pack (where my sp101 lives)
and called 911 As he approached my car I saw that he didn't have any weapons in my hand and I got out of my car so I could see the street signs

First, further tormenting an person already tormented enough due to drug abuse or whatever else the problem (when you gave him the finger swirly around your head gesture), is not going to help dissolve the situation. Nuts is "Nuts". They are absolutely capable of slaughtering you in an instant OVER SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS A GESTURE! You will never know who's who or what anyone has on his/her mind!

Incase you haven't noticed, the world's a very serious playground in this modern age. Beware of the signs and adjust accordingly.

Second, you shouldn't have remained there to take his abuse (the "D" on your shift still works, unless somehow you're blocked in).

If his vehicle is forcing your vehicle off the road, it's the time to step up on your ante. Pull over and get out, using your car to shield yourself from the angry motorist. Keeping a reasonable distance is important.
 
At age 17, I rec'd my first speeding ticket and got to take defensive driving. Cool. The instructor asked folks in the class if they passed people on 2 lane roads. Just about everyone raised a hand. He then asked how many people did not like to get passed and about 3/4 raised their hands. That seemed odd to me as I never thought anything about it. It is simply logic. The fasster drivers pass the slower ones. Then came the question that floored me. He asked how many folks would re-pass a person just because that person passed them. It was about 60% of the class. I was young and naive and figured I must not understand something critical in driving. No, I understood. Somehow for some reason, being passed is something people find insulting. Then again, I always figured the fast guys that pass me are the ones most likely to be tagged for speeding and I see it is as a benefit if they pass me.

-------

Critique...
You passed a guy and it pissed him off. It bothered you that he stopped close to your car. That is stupid. If he didn't touch your car, don't sweat it. If anything, his car was hindered by being that close, not yours.

You knew the guys was upset by his actions, so you made a rude gesture. I think you will find that in virtually all classes with de-escalation techniques, the notion of insulting a person who is obviously mad at you and mad over trivial matters is frowned on as it is not a good way to make the other guy feel better about you.

he then proved his insanity by trying to force me off the road.
I swerved onto the sidewalk to avoid a collision and tried to get out of there (I was only over the curb for a half a minute, but thank God no trees or kids were there) I sped up to leave and he started following me, I drove around in circles but being a residential neighborhood I decided to pull over because we were near a rec center and children were all over the place.

WRONG! He did not prove his insanity and even if it could be proof of insanity, you apparently failed to comprehend the significance of the events.

What did you fail to comprehend? You failed to comprehend the threat! But wait, you failed so many more times in this manner as well.

You drove in circles in a neighborhood where you were run up on the curb by the guy tailing you and then because of your care and concern for the children, like you were Sally Struthers, you pulled over and stopped?

I guess since that you were concerned for the children that you felt you could not drive at any speed what-so-ever to put distance between yourself and the children, even if just 5-10 mph. So you stopped, because of your concern for the kids, thereby negating a critical means of self defense, being in motion. Not only that, but the other guy stopped as well.

So, since you are concerned about the kids, you and this guy that you have deemed crazy and who has already tried to run you off the road...y'all are both stopped near the rec center with kids around. Great. That means you are now keeping the mad man close to the kids. Did you think for a second that maybe after he tries to kill you or succeeds, that he might need to speed away from the area, running over kids? In other words, the idea that you stopped was out of safety for the kids does not hold water. You could have driven away at 5-10 and put enough distance between you and the kids in a minute or so, leading the angry guy slowly away, but you didn't.

Contrary to what you might think, you were not increasing the kids' safety, but decreasing it.

I stayed in my car and unzipped my fanny pack (where my sp101 lives) and called 911

I always like it when people say stuff like how you unzipped your fanny pack where you SP101 lives. That shows you are ready for battle. Oooh Ahhh. At the Tacoma Mall, McKown drew his gun that he carried for the protection of others, then reholstered it as he realized he would have to make a head shot and could not risk it and was in fear for breaking the law on brandishing.

Okay, so you are stationary (for the children), on the phone with 911, and your gun is ready in the unzipped fanny pack)

As he approached my car I saw that he didn't have any weapons in my hand

Uh, you could see that as he approached your car that he didn't have any weapons in HIS hand(s), right? Well obviously if the guy who ran you off the road after following you some distance is approaching your vehicle and doesn't have any weapons in his hands, he must be safe. Right? After all, why would he be walking up to you empty handed?

Wait a second! You had a fanny pack with a gun? Did the guy know you had a gun? Not that you indicated. Being as he didn't know you had a gun in a fanny pack, how did you know he didn't have a gun tucked in a back pocket or inside the waistband of his pants? You didn't. This is a critical mistake. You assumed his empty hands meant that he was not a threat, but your hands only held a cell phone. Were you a threat? Yes. He appears to have blundered as bad as you in this case. Both of you did crappy jobs of assessing the opposition,

and I got out of my car so I could see the street signs and tell 911 dispatch where I was

So, you were followed by a guy angry at you, ran you off the road and you stopped your vehicle to save the children, saw the angry guy advancing on you with no weapons in hand and you got out of your vehicle so that you could see the street signs to tell the 911 operator where you were??? All that time driving in circles and you didn't bother to note where you were?

Okay, so the guy gets out of his vehicle and walking toward you. Would it have been possible for you to drive away, safely? No doubt that even in a school zone, you would drive under the posted school zone speed and still be pulling away from a gun on foot. Why would you NOT take advantage of the 150 hp under the hood? Why would you let a man who ran you off the road approach you like that? Why would you get out of your car with an angry man approaching you? The last physical barrier of safety was the metal and glass of your vehicle and you voluntarily gave that up because you incorrectly determined the guy was not a threat since he didn't have a weapon in his hands. That sort of sounds like McKown at Tacoma Mall. With gun holstered, McKown stood up from behind cover/concealment and told the shooter to drop his gun. The shooter dropped McKown with 5 shots that struck him. McKown did not have a weapon out and failed to make use of available cover...just like you.

... he was yelling enough that the ispatcher heard him the guy finally realized I was on the phone with the cops when I was telling them his plate # and truck colors model

Yep, and the dispatcher might have been the last person to hear you speaking while you were alive as the 911 tape could have recorded the sound of the man charging you and drawing a knife that he used to stab you multiple times or recorded the sound of gun shots as he drew a gun you did not see and started shooting you. 911 dispatchers are not known for being able to appear on site to provide protection. How soon did the police arrive? With your information to 911, were they able to for a perimeter around the area and catch the guy? No. That doesn't happen often. I can, but you can't count on the police being on the next street when you need them.

I think my two mistakes were engageing the nitwit and when I got out of the truck I zipped my fanny pack closed because he was unarmed (but it got his attention and he didn't get near me ) I think he got a hint I was armed because of the fanny pack and the NRA and gun bumper stickers all over the back of my truck

Do you honestly believe that the guy put 2 and 9 together and figured out you were carrying a gun? The guy tailgated you over some distance and tried to run you off the road. Your NRA sticker didn't mean a thing to him.

Oh, but wait, being the well informed and reasonable thinking man that he was, he became scared because you zipped closed your fanny pack for which he identified as maybe having a gun because you have an NRA sticker? Outside of the gun culture, few people associate guns with fannypacks. The folks I worked with for 2 years knew I was a shooter and I took several shooting. The look of surprise was wonderful when they saw me draw from my fanny pack, the one that I wore to work most days. Simply put, fanny packs don't register as a gun item to non-gun people.

If he is that smart, then he decided you DON'T have a gun because what gun toting NRA guy would who has been chased and run off the road and is now outside of his vehicle with no protection would close off access to a firearm when the pissed off guy is closing ground on foot???

More likely, he thinks you pulled out your cell phone from the fanny pack, saw him coming and closed the fanny pack because it probably still contains your wallet or money for your pizza job. You weren't convincing him of your gun when you closed the fanny pack, but convinced him that you were securing your valuables. In short like a ship, you were battening down the hatches before about being slammed by a big storm.

2 mistakes? No. You made more like 10 mistakes, a couple of which were chronic and could have been lethal. These were the ones where you decidedly downplayed the threat potential of the guy even though he did repeated numerous things that blatantly demonstated his hostility to you.

Even in your own assessment, you referred to the guy as a nitwit. A nitwit is a person that does something mindless like leaving books or a briefcase on top of a car and then driving away. A nitwit is a person that might try driving and reading a map at the same time. No, the other guy was not a nitwit, or even if you want to call him that, you still seem to completely miss the fact that the guy tried to do you harm and after that, you still assemed that when he was walking up to you that he had no hostile intent.

You really might consider getting instruction on threat identification. A gun and NRA sticker aren't going to do you any good if you so completely fail to identify a threat as a threat that you don't take appropriate action. You very well could have been the dead pizza guy with a gun in his zipped up fanny pack talking to 911 when you were killed that perplexes everyone who knew you and the fact that you carried a gun for self protection.

Take a look at the following video. Realize of course that I am not suggesting your nitwit guy was carrying 30 odd guns on him. However, take a look at how much this kid has and ask yourself that if you saw him standing there with open hands, would he be a threat? No, but he didn't try to run you off the road either. He didn't chase you. He didn't advance on your position. Are your sure your nitwit wasn't armed?
http://www.compfused.com/directlink/821/
 
Two bits of advice that is perfectly applicable to BOTH participants in this situation.

1. Don't bet your life on other people's sanity. You may get one who's totally off the deep end and lose BIG.

2. If you ever even begin to think a few gestures or horn honks, or being passed or cut off or slowed down on the road entitles you to violently confront the person who "insulted" you, please seek professional help immediately.
 
JohnKSa is 100% right

Some people are just nuts. Maybe the right thing to do was to to continue to ignore him and not join in the hand sign games, even if they're not obscene. As has been pointed out on other threads, responsible people (you) who elect to carry for self defense have an increased responsibility to avoid conflicts. Of course it's always easier for someone who wasn't there to criticize. Glad you made it out of it OK.
 
On another forum, I explained a story very similar to the one you tell.
My eyes were opened by some law enforcement people on the board to just to how few (legal) options you have when someone tries to kill you on the road.
I think some road ragers know this.


For Instance, someone runs you off the road. Ok, thats deadly force, right?
Right.
Now, you're off the road, and they get out of their car and come toward you. After having been run off the road, after having someone try to kill you that way, you'd be justified in drawing your weapon to cover them in case they mean you harm, right?
WRONG!
Once the "deadly force" part was over (the running off of the road) you're no longer justified unless he does something new.

The things you learn...
 
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