Rock River NM and other Service rifles

[NateG]

In doing some searches here about service rifles, it seems like lots of folks like the RRA rifles, but some folks aren't so happy with the newer ones. What's good about them/wrong with them? It's been a couple of years since I've done any service rifle competition at all (and last time it was using a mosin-nagant in a "fun service rifle match" at 100 yards, anyway).

I've got an M1 that shoots pretty well, at least, with it my scores are competitive in the middle division. (They've got the scores from the last match posted in the range house.) So, I'd like to get a rifle to use for the Service rifle matches. Any suggestions? I'd like to keep the cost down a bit, where reasonable, but at the same time, I'm willing to save up a few more months (and keep using that Garand) to get something that I won't replace as soon if/when I actually get good at this.

Thanks in advance,
Nate

 

[MissedAgain]

NateG,

I know several folks that have RR uppers and are very satisfied with them. I have one that I use for 100 yd reduced matches, and it sure shoots better than I do with decent ammo.

I know some folks that bought RR uppers last year and they haven't had any complaints. RR has about the best deal going for a "full up" service rifle, and I don't think you'll go wrong with one of their firearms.

Where do you shoot? VFEMI is having a Highpower Clinic the last weekend of Feb/First weekend of March. Keep an eye on the website, it hasn't been updated recently, but I'm sure that there will be some information posted soon there, or at the delphi forum (link on the website).

http://mysite.verizon.net/dangray1948/vfemi/

John

 

[ocabj]

According to the RRA website, the NM complete upper is $675. Unless you can get the RRA NM upper for significantly less than $675, I'd get the White Oak Armament upper. It's $695 and has all the features found on the RRA plus a windage adjustable front sight base and the 1-7" twist barrel. Also, for $55 more, you can get the White Oak pinned rear sight.

Of course, I'm biased since I actually own a WOA.

http://www.ocabj.net/gallery/woa_sr_upper/

 

[ocabj]

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

they are fine out of the box. The only thing I have ever had a problem with dealing with the uppers is the rear sights.
a good many of them including one I have now that I have not fired yet the front of the sight base rubs the reciever and it will give you very inconsitant adjustments. Easy fix as I just remove the sight and take a little off untill it does not rub anymore.
also check your windage screw as in some of them you get slop as the bushing and screw do not mate correctly. I have found replacing the bushing that the windage screw goes in with a different one will correct this. both problems are easy to spot and fix.
jon
then again 3 of my service rifle uppers also have john holliger's sight mod on them. He was the first to go with it and others have followed.

 

[MissedAgain]

Well, I certainly can't argue with White Oak. The DO make fine uppers. I have one of their match rifle uppers myself.

Check delivery on both, as sometimes the W.O. will have a lead time, sometines not. Same is true with the Rock Rivers. The pinned rear sight is certainly worth it, and if you do go White Oak, get it done, you won't regret it.

 

[NateG]

Thanks for the responses.

Okay, next question... flash hiders. Do most folks have them? Not have them? Does having one affect accuracy? The RRAs come with them, the WOAs don't unless you ask for them to thread them. Opinions? (I'm in VA so there aren't any state-level restrictions)

 

[MissedAgain]

If I'm not mistaken, flash hiders are not legal for NRA Service Rifle competition.

If all you're going to shoot are "Fun Matches" (Like at the Centreville IWLA), then I'm sure it won't be a problem for the folks that shoot out there. It's pretty laid back.

On the other hand, if you want to persue the sport and find yourself at Fairfax Rod and Gun Club, Butner NC, Whitehorse, Ft. Meade, Fall Hill (Cumberland, MD), or Perry, then you might hit some resistance.

Honestly, your best bet might be to investigate the Highpower Clinic at Fairfax rod and Gun Club on February 10th, or the VFEMI clinic at Quantico at the end of Feb. Either of those groups will be more than happy to answer your questions, and get you on the right track.

Don't jump into buying something that won't be legal, or won't work (does it have a float tube, can you change the rear sight aperature, etc). I did that and it sure cost me some extra $$$!

Fairfax is also having a spring league. Four person teams, nine opportunities to shoot, and your top three scores count toward the team score. If you don't have a team, they will get you set up with a team, provide a coach, and get you started. Great way to get back into the game!

If you can't track down any info on either of the clinics, hit the "Questions/Comments" link on the VFEMI webpage and ask Dan for the info. If you don't get an answer in a day or so, post back here and I'll gather up the info and we'll find a way to get it to you.

Edited to add:
I work in Chantilly, and live in Stafford, so I run pretty close to Centreville every day. Well...unless we get 2" of snow....

-John

 

[ocabj]

A2 flash hiders have always been legal for NRA high power. A barrel without a flash hider is also legal. It is your option to have one or not. Accuracy should be the same assuming the flash hider is installed properly. Personally, the only reason I would want a flash hider is for a muzzle/crown protector.

After the Clinton ban that required new ARs to be sold without a flash hider, people realized that accuracy actually increased across the board without flash hiders. It makes you wonder how many of the flash hiders are poorly machine/installed.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

The only problem with flash hiders is you want to make sure it stays tight as if it starts to loosen you poi will be off. I believe you will not see much difference or any that you will notice between having one and not having one.
RRA has it because the ban is over! As soon as it was over that is what they started producing. Way to go guys good job!

 

[MissedAgain]

ocabj,

Thank you for correcting me. I suspected I might end up eating crow on that one. Am I thinking of EIC matches instead of NRA matches? I guess I'd better get out my rulebooks and check up on it so I don't send Nate in the wrong direction.

Buying an upper that doesn't "fill the bill" really stinks. Been there, done that.

I know I don't use a flash hider, nor have I seen anyone else on the line with one (except for the military teams).

I will attempt to redeem myself and do some research on the legality of flash hiders for highpower competition and post my finding back here.

 

[MissedAgain]

OK - I got it, I was indeed confused. There doesn not seem to be either an NRA or a CMP rule excluding flash hiders.

I was thinking of Muzzle Brakes and Compensators. Relevant rules that I could find:

CMP Competition Rules, 10th edition
Rule 6.2.3 Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm, M16

(6) The flash suppressor and bayonet lug may be removed
or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash
suppressor or bayonet lug. Barrel length may not
exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the
rifling in the end of the barrel.



NRA Highpower Rifle Rules, Revised April 2003 (There is a
newer version out there, but I don't have a copy of it)

Rule 3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes
The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited....


Thank you, ocabj for correcting me!

 

[P-32]

Nat, The RRA NM will take you to Master and beyond.

I went through this a couple of years ago. For a few dollors more than the RRA, I got a RRA NM lower and put a White Oak Precision upper on it. Fit and finish to my lower is perfect. I am getting ready to order another WOP upper as my current WOP upper has a high round count. I'm planing on going to Perry this year and don't want to have a barrel go south there for sure.

A WOP tuned RRA 2 stage trigger is hard to beat for the money. Last I heard you can send in a RRA 2 stage with $35.00 which includes shipping back to you. A RRA NM lower comes with the 2 stage trigger.

WOP and WOA are owned by the same guy, John, who is also a High Power competitor.

John does a great job building a upper and I really like his pinned rear sights. The rear sight comes with 3 different sized apertures which can be screwed in and out. I use the smallest one for really bright sunny days and the middle sized one for overcast dim days. The largest one has remained unused.

My current upper has a 6 1/2 to 1 NorPac. I had dreams of shooting 90's at a 1000 but this won't happen. The 6 1/2 to 1 twist shoots 52 to 80 gr. SMK's without problems. Using 69 gr. SMK's I've come close to cleaning 600 reduced for a 100 targets. With 77's and 80's it is a real hammer making 600 yard shooting with 80's almost boring if I do my part. Biggest problem with a WOA or WOP upper is if you shoot a bad shot, it isn't the rifle.

I think my next upper will be a Kreiger 7 to 1 twist just because I can. I will confer with John before ordering because I believe he knows whats best and I know he seems to like NorPac barrels. NorPac is becoming popular with the bench rest people.

I shoot with a guy who has a Compass Lake. No doubt Compass Lake is THE top shelf rifle, but I like the features WOP has over the CL. Besides the guy with the Compass Lake hasn't beat me yet.

There has been talk about the Flash hider......there is no rule other than State law. If your state allows Flash hiders/bayo lugs then by all means, why have a neutered rifle?

 

[NateG]

Thanks. I'm going to a high-power "new shooters' clinic" on Thursday. I hope the emphasis is more on "new-to-high-power" than "new shooters," but either way it should be a good time. And I'm going to try to sign up for a spring high-power league, as well. So it'll just be a waiting and saving up game for a little while. Thanks for all the responses. I think what I'm going to try to do is get my hands on a RRA NM lower as soon as I can, then worry about the upper soon thereafter. However, I've heard that Rock River is a little backed up, especially with lowers by themselves. So, I might have to just buy the whole RRA rifle together, then buy the WOA if/when I wear out the RRA or if I get to the point where the difference matters. (But I'll probably wear out the RRA first, I'd think. )

Is that a reasonable course of action?

 

[MissedAgain]

Sorry for all the confusion I caused with the flash hider. I sure didn't mean to get folks worked up and confuse everybody. Flash hiders are legal, it's the muzzle breaks and compensators that NRA dissapproves of.

P-32, don't forget to ask Mr. Holliger about re-barreling the upper that you already have. If you go that route, you can save some serious $$$.

On the other hand, if you want to shoot ITT, there is something to be said for having a "dedicated" upper for that purpose. No sense in burning out your XTC (Across-The-Course) gun on ITT. And of course, if you're headed to Perry, having a "spare" upper (with dope and ammo) isn't a bad idea at all. I've seen several guns go down up there. One had it's rear sight literally fall apart between the 200 and 300 yard line. Even though the vendors on commercial row got him up and running, he had no dope! One of our other team members had a spare upper (with dope and ammo), so we were able to get the appropriate exemption and swap uppers without starting from scratch for the 300 rapids. That coulda been bad!


Nate, isn't the clinic next Saturday? Just askin...

Between the clinic and Spring league, you'll be off to a good start, and have a chance to learn what you really want before you drop your $$$.

You might try Quantico Arms (they have a store in Woodbridge somewhere), I usually go to their shop on Quantico. At the main gate, just tell the guard that you are headed to "Quantico". I know, it sounds silly, but there is a civilian town of Quantico on the base of Quantico. They are good folks, and usually have a pretty good selection of black rifles. Do a google for them, they have a website somewhere.

The other places to try are Virginia Arms and Guns and Ammo warehouse, both on the south side of Manassas, right on RT 28. Bernie at VA Arms has a great shop, great customer support, and a crowd of regulars from all sorts of shooting disciplines. Guns and Ammo Warehouse has a darn good selection too, and the folks there are top notch.

I bought a Bushmaster lower from Guns and Ammo last fall for my match rifle build, I don't remember them having any Rock Rivers....but as we have learned from my flash hider error, sometimes my memory ain't what it used to be!

 

[P-32]

Nate, Check www.eaglefirearms.net

They have the RRA in stock. They also sell RRA NM lowers for $349 but are out of stock at this time. I have bought Mags from them and found the NHMTG 20 round mags work just fine, in fact they supply mags to colt and others. I don't think there are many who would beat their price. I would find a FFL who won't rack you over the coals for a transfer and have at it. The RRA is great right out of the box rifle and they shoot well. They use the right chamber for high power and the barrels are Wilsons. Once you get started with the AR your full bore rifle will do a lot of sitting. I hope you reload your own ammo. I use WOP's reloading info and found it's right on.

Missed, I plan on having my current upper rebarreled when it needs a barrel. It's still shooting for now. A spare upper is good, don't you think? When I get a little $ ahead, another lower will get ordered as well. This way I would have a complete spare rifle and could loan it out to a new shooter if need be.

 

[MissedAgain]

A spare upper is good, don't you think?

Oh yes, yes, spare uppers are good. Spare complete rifles are better. Several spares are even better.

I have an ITT upper, an XTC upper, a "reduced course" upper, a Plinker carbine", and a full-up spacegun. I'm only one lower short, but I'll fix that soon.

Both of the full course guns have 1/2 X 1/2 sights, and the "reduced course" upper has 1/4 X 1/4. All are pinned, except the reduced course upper. I only use if for 100 yd. matches, and it's pretty much "set it and forget it".

Spares are good.

And it's not a disease....I can quit any time I want.....

 

[P-32]

Oh yeah, I recommend 1/4 by 1/4 sights on any match rifle. Missed uses 1/2 by 1/2 sights but with the 1/4's I will turn a knob a little sooner and feel it won't kill me so bad. Most of the time I'm right.

I grew up shooting a M-14 and then later a 308 M-1 with NM sights. I could never seem the get the hood to do what I wanted. I really like the 1/4 MOA sights on my WOP.

 

[hagar]

I bought one of the first RRA uppers back in 2000. Had a lot of problems with it, the chamber was rough and would rip the heads off cases, making for interesting alibis. Send it back, came back with a canted front sight. After that, it shot good, but not as good at 600 as a Compass Lake upper I bought used. The Wilson barrel did hold up well, I replaced it at 5000 rounds and it was still shooting good. Now it sports a Douglas, and I use it for 100-300 yard matches.

 

[NateG]

"Nate, isn't the clinic next Saturday?"

Yes, you're right. Thursday is Service Rifle practice at Izaak Walton. Saturday is the clinic. I know Guns & Ammo well and have spent a goodly portion of my fun budget there. VA Arms isn't bad, either, though I find more stuff I like over at G&A, especially their used stuff, though their black rifle selection is pretty impressive.

 

[paulo]

You could also try hpirifles.com Mike builds an outstanding rifle.
I would say as good or better than White Oak.