Ron Paul the flunkie
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Dravur
Member
Sorry Pax...
no matter how hard we wish it weren't so and how many times we wish upon that star, the fact is, as of this moment, this is a two party country.
and yes, I know, we all should work against it, you have to realize, the VAST Majority of the people aren't in tune to politics and are going to vote D or R soon. There is no party that has a chance against the two Big Tent groups.
no matter how hard we wish it weren't so and how many times we wish upon that star, the fact is, as of this moment, this is a two party country.
and yes, I know, we all should work against it, you have to realize, the VAST Majority of the people aren't in tune to politics and are going to vote D or R soon. There is no party that has a chance against the two Big Tent groups.
Dravur ~
No, actually. Ron Paul does a pretty good job of representing my views. But you guys are saying I shouldn't vote for him, even though he is within the Republican party and has a chance of changing the party from within.
You & others are saying I shouldn't vote for him, or give money to his campaign or volunteer to help in his machine though, because you don't agree with his stances. Funny how that works.
pax
Maturity abounds
I have yet to have anybody offer a decent explanation for why when Paul does not get the nomination that votes should still be cast for him. Acting like lemmings only yields one result.
Ummm, no. I'm quite sure I agree with pretty much most of what Paul says. His viewpoints arent the problem. His lack of money, exposure and party support is.
Dravur
Member
Pax..
You have not been reading carefully Bro.... I would LOVE to see Ron Paul Win and Id even help try and get him through the primaries. I just dont see him having alot of chance. That's all Im saying. The rest of it is a look at how politics works in this country.
I have to work from reality and that reality is, one of the two major parties is going to win. I want it to be my side, even if I dont get the best choice.
Again, Id be happy as a clam if Ron won. I just don't see it happening.
You have not been reading carefully Bro.... I would LOVE to see Ron Paul Win and Id even help try and get him through the primaries. I just dont see him having alot of chance. That's all Im saying. The rest of it is a look at how politics works in this country.
I have to work from reality and that reality is, one of the two major parties is going to win. I want it to be my side, even if I dont get the best choice.
Again, Id be happy as a clam if Ron won. I just don't see it happening.
Sure, STAGE 2.
He's a member of the REPUBLICAN party, but you keep making this about the libertarian party (see post # 75 for an example).
He's starting a primary run to determine if there's any support, but we shouldn't tell him we support him because we don't want him to know he's got any support.
But it's not about his views.
Right.
pax
He's a member of the REPUBLICAN party, but you keep making this about the libertarian party (see post # 75 for an example).
He's starting a primary run to determine if there's any support, but we shouldn't tell him we support him because we don't want him to know he's got any support.
But it's not about his views.
Right.
pax
only1asterisk
member
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Pax,
You tell it,
David
You tell it,
David
Dravur
Member
Strawman Bro....
The AWB is not a sure thing as some demos are scared to trot it out, and the majority of the republicans dont want it either. It is a political hot potato... On the other hand, we WILL elect a president, there is no getting around that. One is a sure thing, the other is a bill that can and may die a death it deserves.
The AWB is not a sure thing as some demos are scared to trot it out, and the majority of the republicans dont want it either. It is a political hot potato... On the other hand, we WILL elect a president, there is no getting around that. One is a sure thing, the other is a bill that can and may die a death it deserves.
Prince Yamato
Member
Stage 2 said he supports most of Ron Paul's views and leans libertarian. Stage 2 is also smart enough to realize that neither Ron Paul nor the libertarian party will ever win anything at either a primary or general election stage in 2008. Stage 2 isn't bashing your choice of candidate's values. He's saying that they won't win based on numbers. That's not opinion, that's a fact. Neither of your choices is viable. Yes, you must deal with that. You can either play a winning card or play your losing hand. You seem hell-bent on playing a losing hand- except this losing hand drags us all down. The libertarian party is to the right what the green party is to the left, a siphon for potential votes. We live in a two party system, that's a fact. I don't mean to rag on you too much, but you are the most vocal of your group on this particular thread. The fact is a lot of banter on THR is about throwing votes to non-viable candidates. If some of you can't have your way 100% you crab like children and say that you're going to do your own thing. This may work on the pre-school playground, but on the political one it's a recipe for failure.
only1asterisk
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Another recipe for failure is having to choose between a RINO that has no respect for your rights and a Democrat that has no respect for your rights.
David
David
I realize that. My comment on the libertarian party was in response to your suggestion that they are somehow a viable alternative. If the dems and repubs are both rapists, then the libertarian party is the guy who stands there and does nothing to stop it. He may not be bad, but he cant do anything to help you.
Once again, if everybody on THR and a friend voted for Ron Paul, he still wouldn't clear 2-3 percent in the primary. Its got nothing to do with views, it has everything to do with viability.
The latest straw poll that came out had Paul 10th out of 14th. A total of 776 people voted and your Golden boy recieved a total of 4 votes. 4 votes!!!! To add insult to injury, Paul was beaten by Gingrich WHO HASN'T EVEN DETERMINED WHETHER HE'S GOING TO RUN YET. Whats worse, he recieved only 2 more votes than Condi Rice, who has stated ad nauseum that she has NO INTENTION OF EVER RUNNING. The same goes for the candidate in last place. He was a write in as well.
There is no amount of time or money that is going to get this guy in a winnable position.
We can sit around like a bunch of cornered cats
while liberals sip another dry martini as we waste our resources spinning our wheels, or we can put our votes and our money where its going to do the most good. I don't know whether or not this AWB will pass, but if it does, I'd like to make them earn it as opposed to rolling out the red carpet.
So besides making you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, what exactly is voting for Paul going to do for gun rights.
gc70
Member
Who has a crystal ball to see who is "electable" two years hence?
Stage 2 warns us all to not waste our efforts on an ultimately unelectable candidate who represents our views, but to immediately get behind a compromise candidate who is a potential "winner." That strategy might cure a popularity deficit in a high school class election, but it does not advance views in presidential primaries.
Supporting a dark horse candidate in the primaries is a way to loudly express your views. When dark horse candidates get more votes than expected, the front-runners try to adopt views to attract the dark horses' voters.
I want the 2008 candidates from both parties to know that a large number of votes depend on their positions on gun rights.
Igloodude
Member
Stage2 et al,
The "libertarian wing" on THR and everywhere else has been told repeatedly that voting LP is throwing your vote away, better to vote Republican and try to push the party in a libertarian direction from within. Now a Republican presidential candidate is up and the libertarians are fully supportive of him - but now we're being told that he'll never even make a dent in the primary, don't bother supporting him.
The point of supporting him in the primary is to show that even with no money and no name recognition, he can still feed off the support of a lot of libertarian-minded Republicans that would otherwise throw their support to the LP (or stay home on election day, but traditionally primary voters don't stay home for the general elections).
The longer the libertarian/pro-RKBA voting bloc votes as a bloc for whoever the Republican primaries annoint, the more the eventual primary winner can take us for granted and simply be "slightly less likely to sign AWB II". In effect, those voters are the ones screwing it up for our children. So no, we're not going to let a Republican candidate for president take us for granted, and there's only one way to do that - a political Zumboing.
The "libertarian wing" on THR and everywhere else has been told repeatedly that voting LP is throwing your vote away, better to vote Republican and try to push the party in a libertarian direction from within. Now a Republican presidential candidate is up and the libertarians are fully supportive of him - but now we're being told that he'll never even make a dent in the primary, don't bother supporting him.
The point of supporting him in the primary is to show that even with no money and no name recognition, he can still feed off the support of a lot of libertarian-minded Republicans that would otherwise throw their support to the LP (or stay home on election day, but traditionally primary voters don't stay home for the general elections).The longer the libertarian/pro-RKBA voting bloc votes as a bloc for whoever the Republican primaries annoint, the more the eventual primary winner can take us for granted and simply be "slightly less likely to sign AWB II". In effect, those voters are the ones screwing it up for our children. So no, we're not going to let a Republican candidate for president take us for granted, and there's only one way to do that - a political Zumboing.
The reason for voting for a Libertarian candidate or Ron Paul (assuming it's clear that they aren't going to win) is two-fold: to give the party's ideas some exposure and to make the government start paying attention to us. If a Libertarian candidate were to get 20% of the vote across the country, he may not win but he'd be helping further his goals down the line. The democans and the republicrats might realize that they aren't the only two shows on the road. Even they might start to vote for a more limited government from fear of getting ousted the next election.
After that election, with a national awareness of the Libertarian platform, we might start getting a trickle of Libertarians into Congress. Once people see this and realize that they're a viable party, then seats in Senate and maybe even a Presidency can follow.
The important thing is to seek out those disgruntled D's and R's that are just sadly ignorant of what they're missing out on. Protest votes aid this process.
After that election, with a national awareness of the Libertarian platform, we might start getting a trickle of Libertarians into Congress. Once people see this and realize that they're a viable party, then seats in Senate and maybe even a Presidency can follow.
The important thing is to seek out those disgruntled D's and R's that are just sadly ignorant of what they're missing out on.
Protest votes aid this process.Robert J McElwain
Member
Really??
I'm sorry I don't have the specifics here in front of me but, right now, Libertarians hold offices in just about every State in the union, from City Councils, School Boards, County Commissioners, State Representatives and State Senators. They hold these offices as Libertarians, not camouflaged as Republicans or Democrats.
Replacing a major party is not an overnight event, but there are two that need replacing and it is happening. You just need to take a longer term view of things.
Bob
TrybalRage
Member
Prince Yamato said:
Not true. Some Liberals and Free Speech advocates know of him and like him too. Just because we concentrate on the 2nd does not mean everyone else cares about it. Some people are concerned with other issues, and like Paul.
First time I heard of him was on a shock-jock radio show fansite, and he had lots of support.
nico
Member
I'm still waiting for proof that Guiliani is less likely to sign AWBII than Clinton or Obama. Everything in his history says he's just as big a gun grabber as almost any Democrat.
johnster999
Member
I'm delighted to see Duncan Hunter doing so well in the straw polls. This despite his far lesser name recognition and money.
I like the guy's stance on guns, the border and the war. His own military service record as well as that of his son will be an asset to him in any election. I think he's electable, unlike any of the other Rudy alternatives.
I don't see Ron Paul as presidential material but would not call him a "flunkie". He's clearly a principled man who supports individual freedom and that's a good thing. I'd like to see more like him in congress.
999
I like the guy's stance on guns, the border and the war. His own military service record as well as that of his son will be an asset to him in any election. I think he's electable, unlike any of the other Rudy alternatives.
I don't see Ron Paul as presidential material but would not call him a "flunkie". He's clearly a principled man who supports individual freedom and that's a good thing. I'd like to see more like him in congress.
999
Libertylover
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Stage 2, how much is the Hunter campaign paying you for this thread?
Anyways, you're making a big stink out of a South Carolina straw poll in which you admit ONLY 776 people voted. Paul hasn't had time to develop any name recognition yet. Furthermore, how many of the typical Boobus Americanus that a straw poll rakes in will actually go vote on primary day? And to further tarnish your "facts" that "Ron Paul has no chance, so support the theocrat Hunter instead", SC matters little in the initial stages. It's all about NH and Iowa.
FACT: NH loves Ron Paul. The folks over at the NH Liberty Forum treated him like a rock star this weekend. He wowed the crowd at a private reception just after his speech, and 150 or so people crowded into a private residence to support the man. http://disinter.wordpress.com/2007/02/25/ron-paul-draws-large-crowds-in-new-hamshire/
http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=455&Itemid=36
People are coming out of the friggin woodwork in NH to support the good doctor.
Then there's the issue of his support on the internet. In EVERY online poll I've seen so far, Dr. Paul has wiped the floor with every other republican. No, they're certainly not scientific whatsoever, but it's a good indicator of his popularity among those of us who are active online. He also has more friends of his myspace page (over 3200) http://profile.myspace.com/congressmanronpaul
than the next contender, Mitt "I won't take your guns even though I did nothing to stop the MA legislature from doing it" Romney at 1800. http://www.myspace.com/voteromney
But back to your theocrat hero Hunter. http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Lets see. Hmmm...
Anyways, you're making a big stink out of a South Carolina straw poll in which you admit ONLY 776 people voted. Paul hasn't had time to develop any name recognition yet. Furthermore, how many of the typical Boobus Americanus that a straw poll rakes in will actually go vote on primary day? And to further tarnish your "facts" that "Ron Paul has no chance, so support the theocrat Hunter instead", SC matters little in the initial stages. It's all about NH and Iowa.
FACT: NH loves Ron Paul. The folks over at the NH Liberty Forum treated him like a rock star this weekend. He wowed the crowd at a private reception just after his speech, and 150 or so people crowded into a private residence to support the man. http://disinter.wordpress.com/2007/02/25/ron-paul-draws-large-crowds-in-new-hamshire/
http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=455&Itemid=36
People are coming out of the friggin woodwork in NH to support the good doctor.
Then there's the issue of his support on the internet. In EVERY online poll I've seen so far, Dr. Paul has wiped the floor with every other republican. No, they're certainly not scientific whatsoever, but it's a good indicator of his popularity among those of us who are active online. He also has more friends of his myspace page (over 3200) http://profile.myspace.com/congressmanronpaul
than the next contender, Mitt "I won't take your guns even though I did nothing to stop the MA legislature from doing it" Romney at 1800. http://www.myspace.com/voteromney
But back to your theocrat hero Hunter. http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Lets see. Hmmm...
That's a little troubling.
I see, he doesn't respect freedom of speech, either...
more stifling of free speech...
WOW!!! Who'd a thunk it! Demonstrable disregard for our fourth amendment!!!
RealID's already getting tons of flack from the states, INCLUDING NEW HAMPSHIRE!!! Good luck getting your boy to pass muster in a state that hates the RealID thing AND is extremely influential in the primaries!
Titan6
member
Real ID, RP, RG
The timing of some of these anti-freedom portions of the PA starting to hit with America during the Election warm-ups will play hell with the campaign. I predict that once people start realizing what it is all about they will throw more support behind whoever is/ was against it.
Personally I don't think RP has a chance. I also don't think the 2A or real freedom has a chance of surviving the next 25 years either. Given this fatalism I will back who I believe will work the hardest to maintain the rights of Americans and the Constitution instead of someone I know will speed the process. We all will likely lose but we were going to lose anway so at least I will go with a clear concious.
RG changed his mind on gun control? Now that is a side splitter... I will believe it when he goes door to door to every single gun maker he sued apologizes in person and pays them back out of his own pocket for legal fees. Oh wait, he can't he sued some of them out of business.
The timing of some of these anti-freedom portions of the PA starting to hit with America during the Election warm-ups will play hell with the campaign. I predict that once people start realizing what it is all about they will throw more support behind whoever is/ was against it.
Personally I don't think RP has a chance. I also don't think the 2A or real freedom has a chance of surviving the next 25 years either. Given this fatalism I will back who I believe will work the hardest to maintain the rights of Americans and the Constitution instead of someone I know will speed the process. We all will likely lose but we were going to lose anway so at least I will go with a clear concious.
RG changed his mind on gun control? Now that is a side splitter... I will believe it when he goes door to door to every single gun maker he sued apologizes in person and pays them back out of his own pocket for legal fees. Oh wait, he can't he sued some of them out of business.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
Ron Paul could have some support if he makes a good showing in New Hampshire. The GOP will try to silence him. But, NH is his only hope. He needs name recognition, and NH will be the place to get it.
No matter what, he is my only vote in this election. I will do a write in if necessary.
RON PAUL IN '08
No matter what, he is my only vote in this election. I will do a write in if necessary.
RON PAUL IN '08
Lobotomy Boy
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Stage 2, it looks like you're not going to bully any of us into dropping our support for Dr. Paul and throwing our support behind the RNC's annointed one, Giuliani. Sorry chuckles, but we're not ready to roll over and urinate on our soft underbellies in submission just yet. You've still got almost two years to polish that turd of a candidate, but somehow I don't think you'll get many of us to vote for him regardless of how much elbow grease you use. It will be fun watching you try, though.
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