Rotate Your Carry Ammo: Squib Load in Snubby

[roo_ster]

Rotate Your Carry Ammo: Squib Load in Snubby

Howdy:

Given these rough economic times, folks might be tempted to not buy or rotate their social/carry ammo. Well, that bit me in the tuckus a while back.

Hardware
Taurus 651SH2 Total Titanium .357mag, a snub-nosed small-frame revolver.
Winchester Supreme .357mag 180gr Nosler Partition Gold JHP


Circumstances
At the range, I finally decided to burn up the carry ammo I had been husbanding in the snubby and a couple of speed strips. I decided to shoot the speed strips first and then went with what was in the revolver. The last round in the cylinder was a squib that lodged the 180gr pill in the middle of the barrel.

When I broke open the cylinder, there was a good amount of unburnt powder that fell about.


Taurus 651SH2 Total Titanium .357mag

Larger: http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ifsRjdJE1Jg/SntCVwOne-I/AAAAAAAAALI/HC_jhedopOE/s800/taurus_651SH2.jpg

Analysis
I suspect that, over time, oil had penetrated via either primer pocket or brass mouth. This had fouled the powder and caused it not to burn when the primer was struck. Alternately, the primer was handicapped, but not completely killed by gun oil as it rode in the cylinder.


Fix, Immediate
Nothing to be done at the range, so I examined it at home.

I broke out my big, honking bench vise, as well as the brass & nylon vise jaw dealies. The bbl shroud was secured between them, with moderate support from underneath.

At first I tried to hammer it back out of the bbl with a wooden dowel. Nothing was accomplished save smashing down the front portion of the jacket & lead HP.

Next came a brass rod & hammer. It went nowhere and actually was flattened out a bit on the end.

After the brass rod, I was at a loss. The tough jacket material and the long bearing surface of a 180gr JHP had laughed at my best efforts.

I finally broke down and broke out my 3/8" chuck drill. I slapped a 1/4" bit in the chuck and went after it. I had avoided using any steel on the stuck JHP, but I was at a loss. I drilled through the lead until I discovered just how tough the partition is on a Nosler Partition. My drill & bit could not penetrate the thick web of jacket material placed cross-wise in the JHP. Check out the cross-section from Winchester:

OK, yet another failure. I was getting desperate.

I then cut off a bit of 1/4" mild steel rod and planted one end of it in the pocket I had drilled out. I went to town with my hammer and checked with my calipers against the steel rod to see if I was making progress. YES! It looked like I was driving the JHP back down to the forcing cone! Finally, I gave a last whack and the steel rod was free.

Success? Not yet. I had driven a 1/4" diameter slug from the center of the stuck JHP and could now see through it. For the love of all that is holy...

I went back to the brass rod. Its end was a bit bunged up from earlier pounding, but just barely covered the 1/4" hole in the slug. I pounded away with THAT and finally found success. I guess the removal of material from the middle of the JHP allowed the material to flex back toward the center a bit and disengage from the walls of the bbl.

Examining the inside of the bbl, I detected no damage from my efforts.


Slug & Unfired Cartridge, Side by Side



See-Through Slug



Slug On-End with Fingers




Fix, Longer Term
I intend to change a few things to avoid this in the future.

1. Rotate carry ammo more often. One year is too long, even for a revolver. (I shot it more often than that with range ammo.)

2. Carry weapons get the area around the chambered round blown free of all visible lubricating oil with my air compressor. If I need lube near the chambered round, I will use synthetic grease.

3. Develop hand loads that duplicate the Winchester Supreme .357mag 180gr Nosler Partition Gold JHP. This will allow me to practice with the exact load I will use in my CCW but will not break the bank. Yes, Mas Ayoob suggests against using reloads in your CCW. Considering my location, I think it worth the risk.

-----------

If any of y'all have any suggestions, do please let fly.

 

[Taildragger-J3]

Had a similar experience last week, except the nose of the slug was protruding from the muzzle. I managed to drill a pilot hole in the bullet, screwed a self-threading screw into the hole, then clamped the revolver (well padded) in my workmate. Using vice-grips clamped to the screw and a pry bar, I worked the slug out of the muzzle. Now I'm antsy about shooting any more of those (re)loads in my carry piece for fear that the slug may get lodged deeper in the barrel like yours.

 

[1KPerDay]

cool pics.

 

[rogertc1]

I have put finger nail polish around the case and bullet of .22LR rounds to extend their lives in my car gun. I'd still toss them after a year however with the treatment they all worked.

 

[dev_null]

Help me understand this, please.

Milsurp that's been hanging around who knows where for several decades is okay to shoot... unless it's been in your carry weapon for a few months?

 

[jakemccoy]

In sum, the possible problems with leaving carry ammo in gun are the following:

-oil from gun getting into the powder over time, and
-bullet setback from too many chamberings of a particular round.

Is that correct?

 

[9mm+]

I used to cycle my SD rounds just to make sure that they would still feed properly (almost all are JHP's). I never considered that they could be cold from oil penetration around the casing. And since the ammo shortage is still upon us, I am far less likely to cycle the rounds considering that these SD loads are so tough to find. I even find myself shining my ammo with a soft cloth like Barney Fife. I feel like I am protecting some nest eggs or something...

 

[MattTheHat]

I even find myself shining my ammo with a soft cloth like Barney Fife.

Uh, that's a problem just waiting to happen. If you don't shine *all* the ammo, some get jealous and may likely act out as a result.

-Matt

 

[Balrog]

You had a dud round, but I see no reason to think it was because it was too old.

 

[Templar223]

Gentlemens and womens:

Here's some advice from a twelve plus year handgun instructor that you're welcome to take or leave.

In handguns, clean to your heart's content. Lube lightly. It's not an AR-15 where you give the bolt carrier group a bath in oil. If you MUST lube the chambers as a corrosion inhibitor, put a drop on a patch, run it through all six chambers (or five, seven, nine or however many you have) without adding any additional lube to the patch.

Then, run a dry patch through each of the chambers.

Load your carry complement when you're all done cleaning and the gun is to go "back into service". (Remember, NO dry firing once you take the gun out of the cleaning area and load it.)

A little while later, dump the cartridges and feel them for any sign of an oily feel. If they are oily, discard the rounds to your training cache and take the unloaded gun back to the cleaning area and run a couple of dry patches through those cylinders.

I can't emphasize the importance of making sure your wheelgun's chambers are "dry" when it comes to oil penetrating cartridges and rendering primers inert.

Also, I recommend to students that they rotate out duty loads every 3-6 months. Put them in a little baggie and when you go to the range next time, use them as training rounds or whatever. If they don't go bang, you're using too much oil or crappy ammo.

SEMI-AUTO owners: Your chambers are the same. If your chambered rounds are oily, discard that round to the training ammo box, dry the chamber and try again. ETA: Ditto for "rotating out" that chambered round every three months. Ammo in mags can stay for the duration, provided you don't get lube on the top cartridge in the magazine.

I've seen this in more than a couple of shooters in the past. They are sloppy in cleaning and all of the sudden, rounds don't go bang. Three of six in one officer's case.

Oil and personal defense ammo don't go together at all!

Remember: Life is precious. Ammo is cheap.

John

 

[9mm+]

If you don't shine *all* the ammo, some get jealous and may likely act out as a result.

LOL! Just the ones in the speed loader and mags...they're the only ones that can see what's going on anyway...

 

[roo_ster]

Milsurp that's been hanging around who knows where for several decades is okay to shoot... unless it's been in your carry weapon for a few months?

That is an entirely different critter. The best-packed mil ammo, kept in cool & dry storage, can be just fine decades after manufacture.

Take the same ammo, put it in a pre-positioning ship with no AC in the tropics (high 100+deg temps & temp swings, high humidity, salt water vapor or mist in the atmo) and you're lucky if they go "bang" after 6-12 months.

In my case, I suspect oil got in through the primer pocket. But, I live in N Texas and my revolver was carried a lot in my pocket and spent some time in un-air-conditioned environments. That couldn't have helped.

In sum, the possible problems with leaving carry ammo in gun are the following:

-oil from gun getting into the powder over time, and
-bullet setback from too many chamberings of a particular round.

Is that correct?

Yep.

Also, if you leave it in an auto in the summer, toss in 100+deg temp and temp swings into the mix.

 

[DHJenkins]

That's odd. I've got regular old commercial boxed ammo that's been in my garage (in South Texas) for over 8 years and it still goes bang.

It seems like if you've got enough oil in the gun to penetrate the rounds, you've got waaaay too much oil in it.

Remember, it's a gun, not an engine.

 

[middy]

There's no reason your ammo should be in contact with any significant amount of oil.

 

[Fumbler]

There's no reason your ammo should be in contact with any significant amount of oil.

yeah, especially in a revolver.

I run my carry revolver dry with only Tuff Glide.
That's why I carry a revolver...no need for oil to run.
I do oil it if I'm going to shoot more than a few rounds at the range, but after that it gets wiped dry.

I make it a practice to shoot the ammo chambered in my carry revolver whenever I go to the range, just for a little peace of mind. It makes me think "ok, they all went bang. If i had to use it the ammo would have worked."

 

[Suicide*Ride]

Holy grizzly bear Batman!!

Hardware
Taurus 651SH2 Total Titanium .357mag, a snub-nosed small-frame revolver.

Winchester Supreme .357mag 180gr Nosler Partition Gold JHP

jfruser: What are you expecting is going to attack you?!! That's a whopper of a load for a firearm that weighs what..... 3ozs.? Before you flame me, I'm just poking fun @ the SD combination. & I thought 158gr Deer-stoppers fired from an SP-101 was a handfull!! Can you shoot many during practice?

BTW - Great pictures!

SR

 

[Mags]

Wow squib seems to be the word for the day seeing alot of different posts in very different threads on squibs. Just curious how long has the ammo been in the ol snubby?

 

[rfurtkamp]

This doesn't sound like it's necessarily the squib/oil issue.

This sounds like the extremely, extremely heavy .357 bullet (compared to what it's designed with in mind) and a titanium revolver are experiencing the classic problem that the early Smith TI magnums had: under recoil, the bullets start pulling out of the brass.

While it normally leads to cylinder lockup, I can see a bullet that's no longer crimped doing ugly things pressure-wise or causing squibs.

I would not use bullets that heavy in a TI revolver.

 

[eatont9999]

I don't oil my carry .38 enough to get it in the ammo. It is SS, so I only worry about the barrel and any friction bearing joints. I have yet to "cycle" my ammo. I don't even know what it has in it. I just bought some standard velocity HP loads because I don't know if my revolver will handle +P.

I would like to know what happens if a bullet is lodged 1/2 way down a 2" barrel and you fire another round. This could have happened if the dud was not the last round and you where not paying full attention or rapid firing. Anyone had this happen? What should we expect?

 

[roo_ster]

What are you expecting is going to attack you?!! That's a whopper of a load for a firearm that weighs what..... 3ozs.? Before you flame me, I'm just poking fun @ the SD combination. & I thought 158gr Deer-stoppers fired from an SP-101 was a handfull!! Can you shoot many during practice?

It is 17oz. The SW scandium jobbies are 12oz.

The 180gr rounds produce less subjective recoil & blast then any serious 125gr or 158gr rounds. They're easier on me & the gun.

I have shot 4 cylinders' full (20 round box) on one occasion. Most times, I shoot a .357mag handload consisting of a 158gr LSWC and some Trail Boss. Makes for a mild plinker load.

As for what might cause me harm? Well, the likeliest are 2-legged critters, but there are plenty of big dogs, herebouts. You know, the new (20 years or so) pit bull freaks they have been breeding, either inbreeding for size or adding in some mastiff. When I was growing up, a 75lb pit was large. Any larger and they are not as good running through the woods after game.

This doesn't sound like it's necessarily the squib/oil issue.

This sounds like the extremely, extremely heavy .357 bullet (compared to what it's designed with in mind) and a titanium revolver are experiencing the classic problem that the early Smith TI magnums had: under recoil, the bullets start pulling out of the brass.

While it normally leads to cylinder lockup, I can see a bullet that's no longer crimped doing ugly things pressure-wise or causing squibs.

I would not use bullets that heavy in a TI revolver.

You may be right.

I'll bring my calipers next range trip. Measure the 5th round. Shoot 4, then eject #5 and measure it again.

Funny, the owner's manual cautioned me against light loads. It said nothing 110gr or lighter.

 

[RainDodger]

I would lean much more toward no ignition of the power at all, especially since you had unburned powder spilling out of the chamber/barrel. It doesn't take a fully operational primer to ignite the powder. I'd be willing to bet your primer went off, which is fully capable of wedging that round in the bore, and none of the powder ignited. Where the contamination came from is debatable.... priming mixture and gunpowder is 2 different animals. I don't know enough about it to guess whether the contamination came from the mouth of the case or the primer pocket.

 

[ricebasher302]

What if you happened to have some blanks available in the particular caliber. Would a blank have sufficient energy to fire the slug out? Would that be smart?

 

[7X57chilmau]

NO!!!

 

[NavyLCDR]

What if you happened to have some blanks available in the particular caliber. Would a blank have sufficient energy to fire the slug out? Would that be smart?

In a semi auto you could try that. Not in a revolver!

 

[ChCx2744]

so what about in AR-15's? because whenever i take out my magazine to clear and examine the gun, the first 2-3 rounds at the top of the magazine are very slick and covered with oil. there is no helping it, because i add a generous amount of lube to my ar's bolt carrier assembly. if that crap can happen with handguns, can't it happen with AR type rifles? this is scaring me now.