Rough machining on new 44 Redhawk

[UncleEd]

Drail,

I own and have owned quite a few S&W revolvers, both older
ones and some new ones. The new ones have slick actions
and work just fine, as fine or better than the older models.

Canted barrels, off center sights have happened but they
are the exceptions just as some of the junk S&W
produced 30 and 50 years ago.

Have you owned and used a new model for any
extended period? Then you'd know
that very little work needs to be done on them if any
at all.

You say you've worked on older models for many years.
Why? What was wrong with them?

 

[TTv2]

That revolver only costs $900 because of the market place. Anyone that's been in manufacturing and around CNC know that. Material cost less than $50, machine time at the most a couple hours and 1/2 hour to put it all together does not equal $900 retail.

The casting process Ruger uses is world class and allows them to make a lot of frames quickly, but the machining time is there especially when they're milling stainless steels. Cutting tools wear out quicker on stainless and they probably have to change the roughers each shift. Those tools cost $50 a piece on top of the overhead that's usually $90/hour. There's also the need to factor in the costs associated with machine maintenance and replacement, Blaser coolant isn't cheap... the costs add up fast.

Is the Redhawk a $900 revolver? IMO no, maybe a $750 one, just like how the GP100's and SP101's are $500 revolvers, not $600+.

 

[Hartkopf]

Pic in the OP looks like a cutting tool chattered or a debur mishap. It definitely should have been caught at the factory and it definitely should be replaced for free (I’m sure it will).

Ruger still has the highest quality to price ratio I’ve seen. When you factor in customer service, there’s not much better.

 

[wmgeorge]

The CNC mills use Flood coolant and carbide lasts a long time, even on stainless. Filtered Coolant is used over and over again. BTW I am a big fan of Ruger, but prices are set by cost of production and customer demand.

 

[Project355]

The CNC mills use Flood coolant and carbide lasts a long time, even on stainless. Filtered Coolant is used over and over again. BTW I am a big fan of Ruger, but prices are set by cost of production and customer demand.

Well I totally agree with tooling life, and although I have no first hand knowledge, I'd put any amount of $$$ that Ruger has a shop within a shop just to grind and regrind their cutters to their own specs, increasing life, and lowering costs.

Did you really mean the prices are set by the cost of production? You know, that ain't so true. All prices are set by what the market is willing to pay. Cost of production is "almost" but not totally a non issue, except that manufacturers want to keep it as low as possible to maximize profits. In my own field (working very closely with manufacturers for injection molding, brass casting, through-hole and smc electronics) we're typically seeing at worst 1:8 between production cost and out the door to the "sales arm" of the manufacturers, at best, especially on long run items, we're seeing 1:20.

Looking at the pictures by the OP, its obvious that particular area is broach cut. I'm guessing they had either a broken tooth on the broach, or some inclusion got in there to futz with the smoothness.

 

[wmgeorge]

but prices are set by cost of production and customer demand.

You need to read the rest of the sentence I wrote.

Not sure but they may send the cutters out to be reground, may be cheaper.

 

[Project355]

I read it, just wasn't clear to me.

I dunno on send out. Reason being that a good deal of what they use is more than likely custom anyway. They may regard some of their grinds as "trade secrets" too. Saying that because Ruger has steel formulations that they hold proprietary, and how they cut that steel may also be something for them to keep close to their chest. Ruger is colossal in their scope of production, it may be a full time job for a whole group of folks in Prescott just keeping up with cutting tools.

I don't have much experience in just how a broach cutter is reground, being the nasty toothed file that it sort of is. Don't know if R is cutting all three sides of that opening at once either... it "looks" to be so, but looks can be deceiving.

 

[wmgeorge]

When I was working in the "real" world it was not unusual for manufacturers to have 3 sets of dies and instead of doing it in house they would be sent to China for a quick turn around. They did not need to have a whole shop full of tool and die people. Hard to find good ones or machinists now a days.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

When I was working in the "real" world it was not unusual for manufacturers to have 3 sets of dies and instead of doing it in house they would be sent to China for a quick turn around. They did not need to have a whole shop full of tool and die people. Hard to find good ones or machinists now a days.

I left machining as a chief inspector at a jobbing shop. We made the tools big manufacturers like Grumman and Rockwell used in their shops. Every shop I worked aerospace had a grinding shop and a tooling shop. To get into the inspection cage you had to work your way up from the burr bench to the short mills, long mills, tool and die, grinding, shipping and receiving, training and setups. I did know about shops that sent everything out but those were mostly small job operations that didn’t do anything with development. In aerospace everything was development and experimental. I left when pushing buttons was more of the job and the youngsters didn’t know what a hand-wheel was for. These days who knows? Maybe Ruger runs different shops for development, custom work and production. I would.

 

[Project355]

I left when pushing buttons was more of the job and the youngsters didn’t know what a hand-wheel was for. These days who knows?

Which is one reason I accepted the laughs and "you're always grinding something!" from co-workers. I preferred doing precision work on the surface grinder whenever possible... more controllable, better surface finish... better end result. Try facing a cylinder on a lathe, sure it can be done. Do it on the right fixturing and the surface grinder... its like jewelry! But you already know that....

 

[UncleEd]

The most recent postings are most refreshing viewpoints
of the real world of machining, manufacturing.

I'm a S&W fanboy but I truly admire Ruger as well
and have enjoyed its firearms.

 

[TTv2]

The CNC mills use Flood coolant and carbide lasts a long time, even on stainless. Filtered Coolant is used over and over again. BTW I am a big fan of Ruger, but prices are set by cost of production and customer demand.

You'd be surprised how much coolant gets used when machines are running three shifts. It is a daily task and the first thing that every machinist and machine operator checks when they start their shift. I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger is spending 30 grand a year on coolant.

Carbide does last a while, but it will still dull. Looking at this video I'm reminded that most of the machining done on the frames is drilling, reaming... not a lot of heavy milling, but Ruger has so many machines and steps involved that the tooling cost per month must be high, probably 50 grand a month.

 

[TTv2]

but prices are set by cost of production and customer demand.

You need to read the rest of the sentence I wrote.

Not sure but they may send the cutters out to be reground, may be cheaper.

It usually is for certain tools. Stuff like drills can be, use to be, done by hand, but today they have purpose built drill sharpening machines you can buy on Amazon for $50, so that's a cheap upfront cost to extend the use of a drill.

For endmills tho you need a 100 thousand dollar CNC machine, plus a person to run it, usually not something places do unless they're very big.

Also, you can only resharpen an endmill so many times before the diameter becomes so small that it can't work effectively and the tool life after being sharpened is not as good as when new, so there's a point of diminishing returns. My general rule with endmills being resharpened in a production place is two resharps and done.

So far I've never worked for a place that resharpens their own tools, it's all outsourced. Only place I ever been that did was an interview at a dedicated cutting tool manufacturer who had their own job/prototype machine shop, which was awesome because that meant if there were any special tooling needed for a job, it was made in house, practically all their endmills and drills were.

They did offer to hire me... for $3 less an hour than what I was making at the time. Manufacturing sucks.

 

[wmgeorge]

Frankly Its not like they are machining solid blocks of metal, Ruger has a very good casting system for their SS and Steel guns. Most of the machining is final and finish and using the flood coolant and CNC the cutter wear is more than likely at a minimum.

I wish we had more production here in the USA. But around here the decision in the school systems years ago, were the young people were all going to design websites, so the school shop and machine shops were sold off. Now they realize the mistake as machinists, welders, electricians and mechanics are in great demand. I taught the commercial HVAC/R program at a local community college and it was always filled and we had jobs for all that wanted to work. I was a Union Pipefitter and did very well for myself, thank you Lord.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

A quick refresher on the basics of economics is probably appropriate at this point. All things have cost. There is no such thing as “free”. The value of a thing is determined by two variables: what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept in exchange. “Money” is a unit of time with respect to effort.
The end.

 

[Project355]

Two things stuck out at first watch in that video.

First, the barrels are outsourced. I'd not have thought so, but, maybe its the limited capability they have at New Hampshire plant, which is fairly small.

Second thing is the mention of the amount of seconds it took to complete the operations. Two hundred sixty something seconds. And therein is the kicker in manufacturing. TIME is so vitally important, critically important. How many can we make per hour, per day? The real "fixed costs" of the factory - the machines, the building and grounds, utilities, staff wages, will be spread across the time per unit. When you consider time, that huge SMC placement robot, and the corresponding wave soldering tank dont seem too big, because you need to crank out boards like there's no tomorrow, making 100 or more at a time on one sheet of substrate.

 

[Hartkopf]

A good tool and cutter grinder costs $300k.

Someone who can design, program, operate and maintain one or more of these machines is priceless.

Many of these programmer/operators are locked in at dedicated grind shops.

I know of two large manufacturers who have tried grinding their own tools with these $300 machines. Both manufacturers gave up because they couldn’t find the talent to run the machines.

Ruger might grind their own cutters but it’s no small undertaking.

 

[Project355]

Two million firearms annually, they can probably handle it. Then again.... In the video, they spoke of Pinetree Casting as almost a separate company, and "outsourced" the barrels.... You can view Pinetree at the Ruger compound in New Hampshire on Google. Its basically in the same yard, just a different building.

As to the rough spot on the Redhawk.... Dunno how cosmetic it could be made, but it certainly could be made more smoothly functional.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Two million firearms annually, they can probably handle it. Then again.... In the video, they spoke of Pinetree Casting as almost a separate company, and "outsourced" the barrels.... You can view Pinetree at the Ruger compound in New Hampshire on Google. Its basically in the same yard, just a different building.

As to the rough spot on the Redhawk.... Dunno how cosmetic it could be made, but it certainly could be made more smoothly functional.

---
For a while back in the early 80's McDonnell-Douglas outsourced some of their telecom manufacturing to a company called US Satellite. They were on the same road in a small industrial park in Titusville, Florida, as the Mac-Dac parts and spares manufacturing plant and the Mac-Dac administrative building. They shared security employees, delivery docks and a gate but they were separate corporate structures. And, for government contracting purposes, they had different billing and tax ID's. And then there's AC-Delco/GM...

It used to be pretty common in industry for manufacturers to own their outsource for tax and liability purposes (and to legitimize cost over-runs but, shh! no one knows about that)

 

[Project355]

My old compadre "T" used to make turbines for Sikorski... Welded em up in a vacuum bubble. He repaired the trigger housing/fcd frame of my M1 carbine that way too. Dunno about outsourcing today.... more concerned with what happens in Juarez Mexico plant ( all sorts of frobozz... )

 

[mobullets22]

Update for everyone albeit a little late. Ruger got me back the revolver. They smoothed out the machine marks as much as possible. They are still visible but smoothed out. I assume this has to do with the specs on their end and not being able to go below a certain thickness. Now I am just on the hunt for some new sights. Thanks all!