Rug M77 vs Rem 700 vs Sav 10

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andym79

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Hi guys, I am looking to start competitive shooting in the combined services discipline. The match is shoot at 100, 200 and 300 yards. The rifle must be one that has been or is being used by the military or police and in a military caliber. I have decided for cost, recoil etc that the .223 (5.56) would be a better choice than the .308 (7.62).

The option open to me are the Rugger M77, the Remington 700 or the Savage 10.

What are the pros and cons of each?

Are Savages generally more accurate like the rimfire range?
 
According to the internet the Savage is more accuate. I've owned several and shot several more and never found one accurate enough to earn a spot in my safe. For the record, I've never shot a bad one either.

Building an accurate rifle is not difficult. Use quality components and put everything together right and you have an accurate rifle. Savage developed a unique floating bolt head and barrel nut that ensures the round is in the chamber straight without having to do a lot of precision machining. This greatly reduces the possibility of you buying a bad rifle and allows a Savage to be built much cheaper. But is not a guarantee that it will be any more accurate than any other rifle design. Savage rifles are not noted for long term durability either. Folks who put thousands of rounds down range a year tend to have more issues. For the occasional shooter, or hunter they work well enough.

Remington and everyone else's rifle design depends on all the parts to be properly machined in order to get everything to line up right. If they get it right they build an accurate rifle. Get it wrong and you have a lemon that needs lots of work to make it right. As a general rule I've found Remingtons to be more accurate, but have ran across a few that just wouldn't shoot well at all.

Rugers are the most overbuilt, toughest design out there. Generally they are plenty accurate enough for a hunting rifle, but are not known for match grade accuracy. For a hunting rifle it would be my top pick of the 3, but not as a target rifle.
 
That is kind of what I thought, at the moment I am leaning to the 700, its a proven action in terms of accuracy, but its a bit of a gamble with a 700! Also I have heard that Remington have had problems with rifles firing when the bolt is closed "slam firing" without the trigger being touched true?

I have also heard from others that the Ruger are built like tanks but usuall would shoot better than 1.5 MOA.

Also can anyone confirm if Ruger and savage CNC their rifles where as Remington hand make theirs? If so that would explain the large variation in quality, hand building is really for custom making not mass production!
 
Also I have heard that Remington have had problems with rifles firing when the bolt is closed "slam firing" without the trigger being touched true?
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If someone who doesn't know what they're doing messes with sear engagement as a "trigger job", yeah, it can happen. The same is true of any gun, it's just that sear engagement on a 700 is done with a screw and jam nut, which is quite easy, so a lot of people do it who shouldn't.
 
Having owned five Savages I will say that I would not trade my 110 for a Hawkeye, though it would be tempting since I really like Mauser actions. With my extensive experence with Remington I would not trade my 110 for their whole #^*%ing factory. I won't touch another one on a bet. Worst QC in the entire firearms industry by far without a doubt.
As to Savage accuracy, all of mine were sub-moa shooters, one of them would print semi smooth one hole groups EVERY TIME :what: My most recent 110 (package deal gun) gave me a respectable .75" @100 on it's first trip to the range with my first run of handlaods. I cannot wait to see what it will do once the barrel is broken in, I fine tune the handloads, and put a decent scope on it.
The 223 is perfectly fine as long as the wind is not kicking, but with a strong crosswind I will take the 308 every time thanks to the vastly higher BC.
While the Savage 10 is shocking accurate the 12 series is without a doubt the most accurate production rifle on the planet, team Savage has won countless trophys with pure stock off the shelf rifles. It does not get any better then that.
 
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Worst QC in the entire firearms industry by far without a doubt.
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The last 3 years, that's a pretty fair assessment. Cerberus wrecked this legendary company.

Prior to the takeover, Remington made top-shelf guns. I have four 700s and a 673, an 870, an 11-87 Police, a model 14, model 11, model 51, model 522, model 552 and model 24. The 11-87 is the most recent production, at 2005, and all of these guns have excellent fit & finish and shoot well.
 
Yeah 20 years ago I would have told you that the Rem 700 was the best rifle on the planet, but all the new ones I see are very very poor quality, I quit messing with them a few years back, and warned my friends to leave them alone. About six months ago one of those friends bought a brand new R1 aginst my advice, three days later he was asking me what was wrong with his gun. I got him so send it back to Remington which did a complete rebuild on it, AND IT STILL DID NOT WORK! How on earth they can screw up a $700 1911 I don't know, heck even elchepo Firehawks at leased cycle reliably. He finnaly gave up on it and traded it in on a Sig.
 
I have bought 3 new Remingtons in the last couple of years only one had a problem and Remington took care of it fine. I bought a new Ruger rifle and it had the roughest action on any rifle I have seen it went back twice and still rough got rid of it. I have shot another new Ruger it is the same. The old Rugers with tang safety are good the new ones no so much. I have had both new in the last 2 years or less this is truth not hear say. The Savages I own are all accurate but one still working with that one. I say if you want accurate get Savage or Remington. If you want the mauser action get CZ or Winchester I have both of those in new rifles as well.
roc1
 
Ruger actions have never been smooth, but still highly functional. After shooting my Tikka for years (BTW smoothest action anywhere) Rugers feel like the bolt is coated in sandpaper, but in the greater scheme of things smootness of the bolt by itself make no difference to the accuracy or performance on game. I cannot vouch for the CZ since nobody around here carries them, but the Model 70 action is pretty darn slick, better then it's Browning X-Bolt sibiling.
 
I've owned all three. Currently I only own 90's vintage ruger 77mkII all weathers.

I'm going to say this right now. I think rem700's are cheap crap and always have been. Its merely the marketing had folks fooled for so long. I'm sorry but a bolt shouldn't be SOLDERED togeather from a miscellaneous collection of pieces.

Savages for various reasons have the accuracy dpt covered. But they're a bit rough to operate. They also come in the most configurations to suit your specific needs


I like the rugers best of all. The pre hawkeye actions are very smooth (bead blast and smooth, yeah right on the hawkeye) but they only come in a few configurations per caliber.

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I say Savage 10 or 12. I recently acquired a Savage 10 in .308 and I am pleased with the quality, trigger, and overall build. I have not shot it yet, but so far I am happy. I will maybe hit the range next week when my scope base hits the door and I get some glass on it.
 
Actually the Remington action is proven, but only after doing a lot of work to it, changing the trigger, having it trued, etc.

My feelings are that by far the cheapest way to go is get a Savage 10 with accutrigger and then go shoot it. If you get to the point you think it is holding you back you screw on a more expensive aftermarket barrel, by yourself, with no gunsmith. If you need to do more than that there are even options for thetrigger to replace the accutrigger.
 
The remington 700 gets a bad rep but I dont think its justified. I have an old model 700 in 30.06 and it is fantastic. Bought a brand new 700P in .308 last year and it is BY FAR the most accurate rifle I have ever shot.
 
browningguy said:
Actually the Remington action is proven, but only after doing a lot of work to it, changing the trigger, having it trued, etc.
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I don't much agree with that. I've setup on the order of a couple dozen 700 sps tactical 308's for guys and NONE of them shot worse than 3/4 MOA with FGMM or black hills match straight out of the box. Granted you can get a lemon that will have a problem here and there, but I've not experienced it yet. Nothing had to be done to them to make them shoot very well out of the box.

Sure, the trigger is questionable, but so is an accutrigger. So are nearly all mass-produced lawyered-up factory triggers.

It's a feel thing. Savages shoot. No question, and I won't argue it. Yet so do the remingtons. I just can't stand the savage action. It feels nasty compared to the remington. No matter how much money is spent on a savage, I've never liked one. I wouldn't throw it in a puddle if someone gave me one, but I'd sell it. :)
 
Orkan, you make a very good point. At this price point you can and will get a lemon. I have shot and owned Savage and Rems and you will get great ones, good ones, and bad ones.
Still the Savage 12 is hard to beat for the cost. Just my experience.
Yet again the 11 models, particularly the lightweight versions, are more inclined to be hit or miss (pun intended)
 
To the OP's question: Model 12 Low Profile with its weight, fluted barrel and a good scope, you will be competitive, unless you shoot like me :D
 
I own all three and like them all!
With that said, i have had a few problems with each.

I have had a remington with a chamber that had a very badly shattered finish!
A fired/ejected case could not be rechambered. Only after full length sizing could they be chambered again. A pain! But the rifle (35Whelan), was one of the most accurate rifles I ever owned! This rifle would shoot honest to goodness 1/2" or "better"!!! At 100 yards. Group after group! It was stunning!

I bought a Ruger M77 in .338 Mag that was so poorly finished, that every time I sycled the action, the bottom of the bolt face would machine/scrape a significant amount of metal off the magazine follower.
So much so, that it caused a couple jams between the case and chamber when I closed the bolt! That was ridiculous!
I polished that action for hours to get a decent function of the bolt. That rifle never shot all that well.
I have two M77,Mark 1's (tang saftey)and love them! Sssssuper smooth Mauser style actions! Great shooters as well.

I have had a few real cheap looking Savages, but they all shot well.
Two years ago I bought a 110BA in 300Win Mag. That rifle shoots super good! I have taken it to 2000 yards, and shoot regularily at 1760yards when weather conditions permit. I never thought I would be shooting at distances like that, but this rifle makes it way easier! The recoil is no more violent than a light loaded 7mm-08!

All in all, I believe that manufacturing mistakes happen. Reguardless of manufacturer name. Just put it into perspective.

The biggest problem I have seen is companies no taking responsibilty for thier lack of QC. They try to speed up production, reduce manufacturing costs, and charge us like they hand lapped every part of the rifle!
All they need to do is give the consumer "value" for thier dollar.
 
After what Remington did to Marlin...........well some people like the 700's but I'll steer clear for a while. I like ruger but have no experience with them. Savage's I don't have much experience with, my friends swears by them. I have seen a 700 vs my friend savage and the savage out did the 700(even though the 700 was running around 2000$) but allot of that is shooters so....
From my experience from the last 5 years I have seen hundreds of 700's used in Pawn shops (no exaggeration ) while maybe 10 savages and ruger's. Good luck with your choice.
 
I'm not aware that they've used either. For good reason I suspect. :) ... but he did say "police" as well. I'm sure you can find just about every rifle imaginable in some PD's inventory somewhere. ;)
 
I know for a fact while hunting the Ruger action on my Hawkeye hung up from being so rough it did make chambering another round difficult.My Remington XCR has the smoothest action of any rifle I have. I have never had a bolt break off in over 35 years of shooting Remingtons nor have they ever failed me. I always wondered how people are experts that have never owned a particular item. The same with reloading equipment I have Dillon and Hornady the same is true of them both are great. Rugers are good but the new ones are not the quality of the old tang safety models. I own more Rugers and CZ products than any other.
roc1
 
Never owned an XCR, or SPS or 750, but the way I see it Remington has failed me three times in a row and I would be completly stupid to let them fool me a fourth, heck I feel stupid for buying the last one already. The ONLY Remington I still own is an old Speedmaster .22 made back when they gave a darn about their build quality. Savages have NEVER failed me, not once in many years, never had a jam, never had missfire, the only minor glitch I had was with a VERY used 987 .22LR that the plungers were worn out on, making it a full auto......that was fun :D
I love my tikka, but will it hold up as well as my Savages.....I'll let you know in about 20 years.
 
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