Ruger - anti RKBA????
- Thread starter Werewolf
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Zundfolge
Member
I believe Bill Ruger was cut from the same cloth as clay shooters and bird hunters who are against CCW and support the AWB because it doesn't prevent them from shooting birds with their little 3 shot pumpers. Its what I've often called "Elitist Sportsmen". Bill Ruger was more interested in supplying fellow elitist sportsmen with their gear then providing tools of self defense and "liberty tree refreshment". I don't hold that against him in so far as how he conducts his business, but when he helps lawmakers pass laws to restrict what I can buy because of what he wants to sell ... thats crossing over the line.
I don't believe Ruger was an all out Trator to RKBA, but I do believe Bill Ruger gave aid and comfort to the enemy.
As long as he was alive I wouldn't buy a Ruger ... which frankly isn't much of a sacrifice because the only Ruger I want is a MkII .22 pistol.
Now that Ruger is out from under Bill Ruger's control, we'll have to see what happens. I have a feeling that Ruger as it stands now is back on "our side".
As for S&W, I think the new ownership is headed in the right direction, but I won't be completely happy until "the agreement" is publicly shreded by S&W.
I don't believe Ruger was an all out Trator to RKBA, but I do believe Bill Ruger gave aid and comfort to the enemy.
As long as he was alive I wouldn't buy a Ruger ... which frankly isn't much of a sacrifice because the only Ruger I want is a MkII .22 pistol.
Now that Ruger is out from under Bill Ruger's control, we'll have to see what happens. I have a feeling that Ruger as it stands now is back on "our side".
As for S&W, I think the new ownership is headed in the right direction, but I won't be completely happy until "the agreement" is publicly shreded by S&W.
Jeff OTMG
Member
Two very pro gun companies are Beretta, Taurus, and now Colt as Don Zilkha has seen the error of his ways. The boycott against both Colt and S&W were very successful. SWD was also very pro-gun, Wayne Daniel spent a BUNCH of money in court just to piss off BATF and won.
Tamara
Senior Member
Of course, neither have Remington, Winchester, Hammerli, Benelli, Perazzi, Savage...
CZ52GUY
Member
Accountability...
...I believe that for the 2nd to survive, those who support it need to vote with their wallets as well as their ballots.
I regret that so many personal attacks have invaded such an important topic.
I was an active participant over at GTALK when Jannuzzo "pulled a Ruger" by providing support to the Ballistic Fingerprinting legislation that was pending in Congress at the time (still pending, thankfully, with dim prospects).
Similar emotions were expressed there as here, basically falling into a few categories:
1) I don't have the time or inclination to keep track of who is pro or anti, and no one's gonna' make me, so there...
2) Why can't we all just get along
3) We should boycott, boycott, boycott
4) I'm selling all my Glocks
5) The XD is beginning to look pretty good
6) unrepeatable...hey, it's GTALK...
I guess what I learned from that experience was...
1) I believe strongly enough in the 2nd to vote with my wallet, and my time
2) Not everyone is willing to stand strong with their time and money, including those who are gun owners, and would normally vote pro-gun with their ballot
3) Boycotting Rosie O'Donnell is much less painfull then boycotting Charlie's Angels for some...when it comes to the 2nd, some other issues take priority
4) Calling Schumer names is much easier then questioning the 2nd Amendment credentials of the manufacturer of the shiny new gun they just bought, or have been eyeing.
Bottom line, we aren't going to reach consensus on this. Some just don't see the value of standing strong on the 2nd, especially when it means holding a gun manufacturer accountable. That willingness to compromise gave us the '68 infringements, the '94 infringements, and every infringement which has occurred before, between, and since...it will also allow future infringements to be imposed upon us.
To my board brethren, the 2nd is precious, more precious then anything shiney, or anything that glitters, or slinks across a screen. I urge you not to sell yourselves short. Don't compromise. Do what is right.
The final decision is obviously, up to you...
CZ52'
...I believe that for the 2nd to survive, those who support it need to vote with their wallets as well as their ballots.
I regret that so many personal attacks have invaded such an important topic.
I was an active participant over at GTALK when Jannuzzo "pulled a Ruger" by providing support to the Ballistic Fingerprinting legislation that was pending in Congress at the time (still pending, thankfully, with dim prospects).
Similar emotions were expressed there as here, basically falling into a few categories:
1) I don't have the time or inclination to keep track of who is pro or anti, and no one's gonna' make me, so there...
2) Why can't we all just get along
3) We should boycott, boycott, boycott
4) I'm selling all my Glocks
5) The XD is beginning to look pretty good
6) unrepeatable...hey, it's GTALK...
I guess what I learned from that experience was...
1) I believe strongly enough in the 2nd to vote with my wallet, and my time
2) Not everyone is willing to stand strong with their time and money, including those who are gun owners, and would normally vote pro-gun with their ballot
3) Boycotting Rosie O'Donnell is much less painfull then boycotting Charlie's Angels for some...when it comes to the 2nd, some other issues take priority
4) Calling Schumer names is much easier then questioning the 2nd Amendment credentials of the manufacturer of the shiny new gun they just bought, or have been eyeing.
Bottom line, we aren't going to reach consensus on this. Some just don't see the value of standing strong on the 2nd, especially when it means holding a gun manufacturer accountable. That willingness to compromise gave us the '68 infringements, the '94 infringements, and every infringement which has occurred before, between, and since...it will also allow future infringements to be imposed upon us.
To my board brethren, the 2nd is precious, more precious then anything shiney, or anything that glitters, or slinks across a screen. I urge you not to sell yourselves short. Don't compromise. Do what is right.
The final decision is obviously, up to you...
CZ52'
Double Maduro
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,125
OK 'fess up now.
How many of you, especially the boycott crowd, have a concealed handgun permit?
How many have one in more than one state?
Voting with the ballot and with your wallet is all well and good but I think it is more important to show the politicians how many people are out there that have guns and want to carry them.
DM
How many of you, especially the boycott crowd, have a concealed handgun permit?
How many have one in more than one state?
Voting with the ballot and with your wallet is all well and good but I think it is more important to show the politicians how many people are out there that have guns and want to carry them.
DM
CZ52GUY
Member
I don't concur...
...that one can carry their piece and then plunk down money to support those who oppose RKBA and feel like they have done what is "more important".
http://www.nraila.org/FactSheets.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=15
Every time a lawful gun owner, whether or not they choose to carry provides tangible financial endorsement to organizations like these, they are funding the demise of the 2nd Amendment.
The money trail is clear, the information is available, the decision is up to each THR member as to whether or not they want to make their money talk and their voices heard.
Best wishes,
CZ52'
...that one can carry their piece and then plunk down money to support those who oppose RKBA and feel like they have done what is "more important".
http://www.nraila.org/FactSheets.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=15
Every time a lawful gun owner, whether or not they choose to carry provides tangible financial endorsement to organizations like these, they are funding the demise of the 2nd Amendment.
The money trail is clear, the information is available, the decision is up to each THR member as to whether or not they want to make their money talk and their voices heard.
Best wishes,
CZ52'
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JohnBT
Member
Imagine that, Bill Ruger thought for himself and did what he liked.
Ain't America great?
John...I haven't bought a Ruger since 1986 and have hated 10/22s since 1964.
Ain't America great?
John...I haven't bought a Ruger since 1986 and have hated 10/22s since 1964.
JohnBT
Member
Tamara - Doesn't the Savage Model 1910 Automatic Pistol count?
.32 Auto, 3.75" bbl., 6.5" overall, 23 oz.
John
.32 Auto, 3.75" bbl., 6.5" overall, 23 oz.
John
Tamara
Senior Member
JohnBT,
Obviously Savage once cared about the RKBA and the CCW movement, but have since sold us out by discontinuing their handgun line. Boycott Savage!
Obviously Savage once cared about the RKBA and the CCW movement, but have since sold us out by discontinuing their handgun line. Boycott Savage!
Double Maduro
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,125
I'm with Tamara, I will not buy any Savage handguns.
DM
DM
MicroBalrog
member
And since when has Ayn Rand become an universal beacon of morality?
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Tamara said:
quote:
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Ruger has not made a small concealable handgun.
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Of course, neither have Remington, Winchester, Hammerli, Benelli, Perazzi, Savage...
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But they are not in the business of producing an extensive line of handguns and they have explicitly not done this as they don't want to produce a conceable gun. Ruger has explicitly been against such a product for ideological reasons. That's a different beast than a market decision.
quote:
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Ruger has not made a small concealable handgun.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, neither have Remington, Winchester, Hammerli, Benelli, Perazzi, Savage...
----------------------
But they are not in the business of producing an extensive line of handguns and they have explicitly not done this as they don't want to produce a conceable gun. Ruger has explicitly been against such a product for ideological reasons. That's a different beast than a market decision.
MrAcheson
Member
Is the SP101 really that large? Or is it that they haven't made many small handguns....
Brigrat
Member
An interesting link regarding what Bill Ruger actually said:
http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004622.html
http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004622.html
Orbital-Burn
member
I don't know about y'all, but I don't consider the LA riots a good example of why you need to arm yourselves for self defense. However Waco TX is a perfect example of why everyone needs 50 bmgs with steel rounds and ACTUALLY USE THEM!!!!!!!!!
Mulliga
Member
I'll never buy a Ruger, and I'll never buy a S&W.
Makes me glad I picked a Marlin instead of a Ruger 10/22.
Makes me glad I picked a Marlin instead of a Ruger 10/22.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Bill Ruger was a smart bizguy, and worked things to his advantage.
One thing I've suspected, but never seen any evidence of, is complicity in the AWB and import bans.
For Ruger, the motive would be simple: His mini's cost twice as much as an AK clone, and fill the same ecological niche.
Why pay $600+ for a miniX, of dubious accuracy, when you could get an equivalent AK for $300ish?
One thing I've suspected, but never seen any evidence of, is complicity in the AWB and import bans.
For Ruger, the motive would be simple: His mini's cost twice as much as an AK clone, and fill the same ecological niche.
Why pay $600+ for a miniX, of dubious accuracy, when you could get an equivalent AK for $300ish?
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Pale Horse:
Good points. People need to have their ideal choice in personal defense weapons. And it's not like there are many alternate suppliers of lightweight pocket revolvers for example. Only Smith and Taurus make them in any wide selection of calibers. And both of these companies are on the wrong side of the RKBA. Once Taurus finishes their "smart-gun" that's a trip wire for a bunch of States to ban most handguns. Smith still has the "agreement." Given a choice between these two companies I'll go with the one not currently actively working against the RKBA. That'd be S&W unless someone can point me to an alternate source for a 12oz revolver.
Good points. People need to have their ideal choice in personal defense weapons. And it's not like there are many alternate suppliers of lightweight pocket revolvers for example. Only Smith and Taurus make them in any wide selection of calibers. And both of these companies are on the wrong side of the RKBA. Once Taurus finishes their "smart-gun" that's a trip wire for a bunch of States to ban most handguns. Smith still has the "agreement." Given a choice between these two companies I'll go with the one not currently actively working against the RKBA. That'd be S&W unless someone can point me to an alternate source for a 12oz revolver.
carpettbaggerr
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,676
How bout North American Arms? Or Casull Arms?
glocksman
Member
Or when you could buy a commercial Chinese SKS for under $150 that was more reliable than the $500 Ruger Mini 30?
I own 3 Rugers (GP100, 22/45 and a 10/22) because the price/value ratio justified their purchase.
The price/value ratio of a Mini 30 or Mini 14 versus that of an SKS or Saiga doesn't even come close.
It was more about Ruger trying to protect his business against foreign competition than anything else, although I'm sure the 'elitist sportsman' in him played a part as well.
I FORGIVE BILL RUGER!!!
At least next month I do. My Valentine is giving me a choice between a blue or stainless 4" GP-100 along with a card she picks. I am a lucky man.
And I am making that choice because I have decided to forgive Bill Ruger. It is my opinion that the AWB will die. The damage done will heal as everyone will have their mags and bayonets again. Bill is dead and he made begrudging amends for what he did. I sincerely believe that Ruger was an old timer enough that he never truly saw why a civilian would need anything more than a wheelgun or a bolt or lever rifle. He was not totally naive about mil-style weapons as the Mini-14 attests, but one has to admit that Ruger has never really sought that market, pre or post ban.
I think the wondernine craze and the then-beginning flood of primarily Egyptian and Chinese AK clones caught Wm B. Ruger by surprise and he didn't like the trend. His XM9 trial examples were poorly sorted jokes that eventually became the respectable P-89, the descendants of which are the only "hi-cap" capable weapons in the line-up other than the venerable Mini-14. When he started his naive political wheeling and dealing, only Vermont and Florida and at best a handful of other patchwork jurisdictions had "shall issue" CCW, so I do not think his statements on CCW were too out of the mainstream for that time. Admit to yourself, if you can, that a revolution on this issue has occurred, and that regrettably Ruger was never really a part of that. Ruger, the company, does make the excellent SP-101, and I am glad they don't sell a metrosexual revolver when no one who owns one currently really shoots more than two cylinders out of them anyways before never shooting them again.
Ruger realized late, perhaps too late for those who can really nurse a grudge, that one cannot feed his competitors or compatriots to the wolves and not have the wolves come back for himself at the last. I put off buying a Ruger revolver for about 9.5 years of the AWB. Maybe I am being premature, but I forgive Bill next month and am fully confident I will be celebrating this September by ordering myself magazines for pistols I don't even have and looking for a post-post-ban AK clone. I doubt very much that Ruger's current board of directors or senior management are going to be offering encouragement via letter to Schumer, Feinstein, et al for an extension of the ban. Oddly enough, Ruger is probably the financially strongest US firearm maker today. By a country mile.
Remaining on my boycott list:
Glock, for participating in a sotto voce national ballistic fingerprinting pilot project with the BATFE and coming close to jumping into HUD's bed with S&W. This doesn't really harm Glock as I already hate their products except for the continually intriguing G20.
S&W, for not publically voiding its agreement. I will forgive them in a heartbeat if they even publically mouth off that they consider the agreement coercive or otherwise voidable and have no intention of ever honoring it. Again no harm here, as I do not like their cylinder latch or their autos.
Taurus, for engaging in development of the New Jersey smartgun. Again no harm, because they don't make anything I want.
If forgiving Ruger makes me a hypocrite, so be it, but I am betting Bill's damage, such as it is, is nearly over, and there are much more insidious transgressions that have taken place much more recently, as in the case of Taurus and Glock. However, what Taurus and Glock have been up to is way more dangerous to our future gun rights than anything Ruger or S&W ever did.
And those betrayals have not been nearly as public or the rage as lasting as what Ruger and S&W have gone through. I am nearly through punishing my fellow Americans for mistakes made by an old schooler and some traitorous Brits. I think both Ruger and S&W have absorbed some valuable lessons that Glock and Taurus have ignored but we shooters aren't exacting a price for.
Where's the outrage against those latter two companies? Or is it that I am the only hypocrite here.
At least next month I do. My Valentine is giving me a choice between a blue or stainless 4" GP-100 along with a card she picks. I am a lucky man.
And I am making that choice because I have decided to forgive Bill Ruger. It is my opinion that the AWB will die. The damage done will heal as everyone will have their mags and bayonets again. Bill is dead and he made begrudging amends for what he did. I sincerely believe that Ruger was an old timer enough that he never truly saw why a civilian would need anything more than a wheelgun or a bolt or lever rifle. He was not totally naive about mil-style weapons as the Mini-14 attests, but one has to admit that Ruger has never really sought that market, pre or post ban.
I think the wondernine craze and the then-beginning flood of primarily Egyptian and Chinese AK clones caught Wm B. Ruger by surprise and he didn't like the trend. His XM9 trial examples were poorly sorted jokes that eventually became the respectable P-89, the descendants of which are the only "hi-cap" capable weapons in the line-up other than the venerable Mini-14. When he started his naive political wheeling and dealing, only Vermont and Florida and at best a handful of other patchwork jurisdictions had "shall issue" CCW, so I do not think his statements on CCW were too out of the mainstream for that time. Admit to yourself, if you can, that a revolution on this issue has occurred, and that regrettably Ruger was never really a part of that. Ruger, the company, does make the excellent SP-101, and I am glad they don't sell a metrosexual revolver when no one who owns one currently really shoots more than two cylinders out of them anyways before never shooting them again.
Ruger realized late, perhaps too late for those who can really nurse a grudge, that one cannot feed his competitors or compatriots to the wolves and not have the wolves come back for himself at the last. I put off buying a Ruger revolver for about 9.5 years of the AWB. Maybe I am being premature, but I forgive Bill next month and am fully confident I will be celebrating this September by ordering myself magazines for pistols I don't even have and looking for a post-post-ban AK clone. I doubt very much that Ruger's current board of directors or senior management are going to be offering encouragement via letter to Schumer, Feinstein, et al for an extension of the ban. Oddly enough, Ruger is probably the financially strongest US firearm maker today. By a country mile.
Remaining on my boycott list:
Glock, for participating in a sotto voce national ballistic fingerprinting pilot project with the BATFE and coming close to jumping into HUD's bed with S&W. This doesn't really harm Glock as I already hate their products except for the continually intriguing G20.
S&W, for not publically voiding its agreement. I will forgive them in a heartbeat if they even publically mouth off that they consider the agreement coercive or otherwise voidable and have no intention of ever honoring it. Again no harm here, as I do not like their cylinder latch or their autos.
Taurus, for engaging in development of the New Jersey smartgun. Again no harm, because they don't make anything I want.
If forgiving Ruger makes me a hypocrite, so be it, but I am betting Bill's damage, such as it is, is nearly over, and there are much more insidious transgressions that have taken place much more recently, as in the case of Taurus and Glock. However, what Taurus and Glock have been up to is way more dangerous to our future gun rights than anything Ruger or S&W ever did.
And those betrayals have not been nearly as public or the rage as lasting as what Ruger and S&W have gone through. I am nearly through punishing my fellow Americans for mistakes made by an old schooler and some traitorous Brits. I think both Ruger and S&W have absorbed some valuable lessons that Glock and Taurus have ignored but we shooters aren't exacting a price for.
Where's the outrage against those latter two companies? Or is it that I am the only hypocrite here.
http://www.shotshowreports.com/2003pg1.html
JeffOTMG...a regular and respected member of many online firearm forums, talked to Ruger last year at the Shot Show. Read his commentary about 3/4 of the way down the page. I was quite interested in a P97 and an SP101 before I read this. Now, Ruger can go out of business for all I care.
Now people would criticize me for boycotting Ruger, and that's their choice. I suppose those $40 rebates are too much to ignore. It's only your principles you're giving away after all.
This company's founder testified before Congress for the assault weapons ban. Now that the ban is about to sunset, the company still holds its stance that they are willing to sell off the rights of their customers. Why should any of us want to support this company?
JeffOTMG...a regular and respected member of many online firearm forums, talked to Ruger last year at the Shot Show. Read his commentary about 3/4 of the way down the page. I was quite interested in a P97 and an SP101 before I read this. Now, Ruger can go out of business for all I care.
Now people would criticize me for boycotting Ruger, and that's their choice. I suppose those $40 rebates are too much to ignore. It's only your principles you're giving away after all.
This company's founder testified before Congress for the assault weapons ban. Now that the ban is about to sunset, the company still holds its stance that they are willing to sell off the rights of their customers. Why should any of us want to support this company?
Mr. Glock fired his top US exec, Paul Jannuzzo, only days after that 60 minutes interview. Apparently he got the message from the few thousand ticked off phone calls they got. It kind of gives you the impression that Jannuzzo was operating without the big cheese's ok. Of course he could have simply been the fall guy, but you'd think Jannuzzo would have come out about that. He could make more selling books about the "corruption of Glock Inc" than he ever could in some payoff to leave quietly.
fallingblock
Member
I'm with Boats.....
I FORGIVE BILL RUGER!!!
Too!
My new GP-100 is the nicest revolver in terms of quality control and design that I've ever bought new....and that covers 35 years of revolver buying.
Old Bill was a design genius and he understood business perhaps better than he understood RKBA.
Rest in Peace, old guy.
I FORGIVE BILL RUGER!!!
Too!
My new GP-100 is the nicest revolver in terms of quality control and design that I've ever bought new....and that covers 35 years of revolver buying.
Old Bill was a design genius and he understood business perhaps better than he understood RKBA.
Rest in Peace, old guy.
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