Ruger - anti RKBA????

[Nightcrawler]

Futo, I don't even LIKE Ayn Rand. I think the woman was a sociopath. However, I always find it ironic when people accuse each other of being selfish on a libertarian board like this. If you're a libertarian, you can't complain about others being selfish; this goes doubly true if you, say, have an Ayn Rand quote in your sigline. Well, you CAN, but not if you want to be consistent. After all, crying that "it's for the children" or "the good of everyone" is Liberal Arugmentation 101 (four credits, but ironically enough does NOT count towards your liberal studies requirement ).

Either way, typing long paragraphs and calling people "traitor" isn't likely to bring a lot of people over to your point of view.

 

[Futo Inu]

the "nobody's perfect" line of reasoning is a bunch of bogus, rationalizing horse hockey! There's many many gun companies that are a LOT more perfect (better) than the far and away two biggest infringers/sellouts to our rights. Everything's a matter of degree, and each individual has to decide where to draw the line, to be sure. But for anyone who's studied it and followed it, there's no question but that S&W and Ruger have done more to destroy your gun rights before 9 am than all other gun companies combined have done all day. They are the bare MINIMUM of boycott targets. In fact, Ruger has done more to destroy your gun rights than most any non-gun-related company, and more than the average Democrat congressperson. How can we even be having this argument, unless you're truly just uninformed. Sturm Ruger was in bed with Wm J. Clinton, Feinstein, and Schumer, et al, not to mention the sellout repubs led by Gingrich, in passing this bill in 1994, the first bill to ban the manufacture of certain firearms. I understand if you agree that "no honest man needs 10 rounds." But if you don't, and I don't, there's no escaping the conclusion. Is time a reason to forgive? Nope. Is the fact that Bill Sr. is dead a reason? Nope. Nothing but putting a hurt on them will - this will drive out the old management and instill new management with a new philosophy. When sales start sucking, the board instills new management, or better yet, Ruger files for bankrupcty, someone buys the Ruger name, products/tooling/factories, and starts cranking out their excellent products, with money going to patriot owners/managers. There are quite a few American manufacturers that I'd like to see own Ruger's IP and factories, and a few foreign ones come to mind as well, who have done NOTHING to help take away our rights.

Nightcrawler, I see your point. I'm not a Libertarian in the true sense. However, I'm generally in line with those who are. In any event, I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to learn about guns, and to contribute to WIN the WAR that we're engaged in. I will call a spade a spade, and as I say, if you're not informed, then you've got a ready "out" of the accusation until you become informed. But if you're a traitor, then you should be labeled as such. To win this war, we need true friends, not supposed allies that are no better than our enemies. If Oleg and others here can't bear to hear truth, and have people be labeled what they are, then they will close down the L&P section (or kick me off one). But until then, I will only become more vocal about the truth, not less. We won't win our gun rights back by appeasement and giving money to companies that laugh their fool heads off all the way to the bank at how stupid Joe Gunowner was when they pulled the fast one in 94 that boosted their P pistol sales, and saved the Mini14 and 30 from a manufacture ban, and no one batted an eye. It's high time they paid - and it's a perfect opportunity for them to right the wrong. Sturm Ruger needs to take another million, but instead of giving it to Never Repeal Anything (NRA), they need to do a direct campaign to defeat Carolyn Macarthy's and Shumer's new homeland defense rifle ban. Then they'll have my enduring patronage.

 

[Joe Demko]

When "Mr. Canned Ham" made his famous comment regarding honest men not needing more than 10 rounds, in the context of the conversation he was referring specifically to the Mini-14.

 

[Aces]

Mr. Patriot I'd give you a forth choice but board rules prohibit me from posting it.
S&W = new ownership. 629 is my next purchase. Deal with it. I own a couple Rugers, bought before I even really knew what the mag limit was all about. I'm not really a big fan of their products, but with your kind permission, I think I will hang on to them.
How to be a patriot:
Don't buy ruger
Don't buy S&W
Don't buy Glock
Quit the NRA
Vote for Henry Browne
Utopia ensues

 

[Futo Inu]

"Mr. Patriot I'd give you a forth choice but board rules prohibit me from posting it."

OK. Personal attack= lack of substance to argument, as we all know.

"S&W = new ownership. 629 is my next purchase. Deal with it." I don't need to deal with it, because I don't care WHAT you and others who don't care about gun rights do. I care about informing and changing the behavior of those who DO sincerely care about gun rights. You obviously don't. And what's new ownership got to do with an agreement which still exists between S&W and the gov't?

"I own a couple Rugers, bought before I even really knew what the mag limit was all about. I'm not really a big fan of their products, but with your kind permission, I think I will hang on to them."

As I say, what makes a traitor is buying a new one from them - putting $$ in their pocket, which in turns allows and indirectly encourages them to engage in more infringements of our rights.


"How to be a patriot:
Don't buy ruger
Don't buy S&W
Don't buy Glock
Quit the NRA
Vote for Henry Browne
Utopia ensues"

Hmm, not sure where you got that logic, but whatever works for ya. Steps 1 and 2 are definitely good, on that anyone with half a modicum of logical ability can agree. Step 3 - don't buy Glock - I personally don't boycott them. All they did was mark some brass and send to LEOAs - that is nowhere near a clear-cut must-boycott scenario, in stark contrast to Ruger and S&W. Step 4 - Quit the NRA. Hmm, not sure how that is gonna help. I'm a life member, and I want their numbers behind them when they lobby Congress, myself. I'd think you'd be better off JOINING the NRA. Have you? They sell us out occasionally, and all my extra money goes to the no-compromise GOA instead, but on the whole, NRA still does good work. Step 5. Vote for Henry Browne. Yes, I did vote for Harry Browne, even though I think Libs are whack on some issues.

Any other nonsensical nonsequitors you or others would like to throw out?

 

[Aces]

Calling people traitors isn't a personal attack? Since you started the attacks, I'll tell you the 4th choice. Pound sand. Bush admin. won't enforce Clinton agreement. Could a future admn.? Maybe, I'm no lawyer. So what? The current owners had nothing to do with it, I for one won't hold it agaist them or their employees. Hard working Americans, earning an honest living in an honorable industry. God Bless them.
Didnt hear about Glock's VP on 60 minutes saying ballistic fingerprinting being a good idea? Better get more informed.
Quitting the NRA would imply that I am a member. Get it? BTW the list I made was sarcastic. I thought that much was evident, but one never knows.
Good luck with your one man crusade , fella, might have more success tilting at windmills.

 

[Werewolf]

Since I started this thread wondering why anyone would consider Ruger Anti-Gun I think it only right that I jump in and give my opinion:

Based on the numerous replies to Mr Inu and his responses FWIW I don't believe that Ruger is a traitor to the RKBA (though I'm not sure I consider them a friend). I believe that Ruger made a marketing decision - not one that I agree with and probably was doing what the company believed necessary to protect it's market position. As a long time business guy and financial analyst I can't fault them for that.

With that said I own two Rugers and based on what I've learned from this thread I probably will not be buying anymore until Ruger changes it's position and starts making 10 round mags (and if the AWB expires and stays expired then 20 or 30 round mags) for it's products.

Regarding the vitriolic attitude towards Smith & Wesson - well - it was well deserved right up until the company changed hands. Now S&W is a new company and the new owners are doing what they can to distance themselves from the old owners. The below link explains the new company and why we shouldn't be boycotting it much better than I can:

The Betrayal and Redemption of an American Icon

 

[Aces]

Werewolf; Good post. If S&W were to die, as some want, who would win?
This is one of the most well known brand names in the world of any product. Not to mention probably the best DA revolvers made.
Sacrificing the company if Tompkins hadn't sold out is one thing. But the new owners (American) seem to be dedicated to making the company better than ever. Go S&W !!!!

 

[George Hill]

"I don't believe that Ruger is a traitor to the RKBA"
Maybe not, but he was a gigantic git.

 

[FPrice]

Futo Inu...

"I'm a patriot, and who the hell are you?"

WOW! Why didn't you say so in the first place. I mean, you are an honest-to-gosh patriot and the rest of us just can't hold a candle to that, now can we?

Friend, give it a rest. If you believe what you spout, that's fine. But don't assume a holier-than-thou attitude and think that you are the only one who knows the universal truth and the rest of us must be educated by you.

Bill Ruger Sr has almost undoubtedly done more for firearms owners than you have in your life. He built a company that makes and sells some of the best firearms in the world. Next to him, your contributions probably pale in comparison.

One mistaken stand does NOT an enemy of the RKBA make. More likely it makes him a man, one with good points and bad points. You know...kinda like all the rest of us. YOU included. Unless you are the reincarnation of a Jewish carpenter.from Galilee.

You have a bone to pick with Ruger? Fine, pick it and gnaw on it, and fill yer gut with acid till yer heart's content. Just don't be hurt when the rest of us dismiss your vitriol with the lack of praise it has earned.

Think I'll take my Ruger Vacquero out to the range tomorrow and bust a few caps in memory.

 

[twoblink]

I think with ol' man ruger 6 feet under, it's time to make it known how bad some of ruger's policies are..

I love Rugers.. but hate the policy. You can go boycotting all you want, great idea.. But I'd hate to have another gun company go under..

So I'd skip the "silent boycott" method, and just email them.. Tell them they face the wraith of gun owners for their stupid policies..

Capitalism is the end all be all. Not Ayn Rand..

 

[Jeff OTMG]

I have not been a fan of Bill Ruger nor his politics. At least S&W is trying to correct the wrongs done by its' former owners and management. Not so with Ruger. This is what I wrote from the SHOT Show earlier this year:
http://www.shotshowreports.com/2003pg1.html

Ruger – Speaking of Ruger, I thought that I would go ahead and get this out of the way. It is no great secret to those who know me that I don’t think much of Ruger, more precisely I don’t think much of Ruger’s politics. I wanted to use the SHOT Show to give Ruger an opportunity to make things right from a pro-gun, as opposed to a pro-hunter or pro-shooter, standpoint. Now that Bill Ruger has died, they have an opportunity get back on the right course and correct some of the anti-gun political mistakes Bill made while he is in control. Well, it ain’t happening. I placed questions to members of Ruger management to see if they would be changing their policy should the restricted capacity magazine law expire, and not be continued, on September 14, 2004. This is at least a possibility after the result of the elections in November 2002 with pro-gun Republicans in pretty solid control of the House of Representatives, the Office of President, and with a narrow margin in the Senate. With Ruger not even producing a currently legal 10 round magazine for the Mini-14 I didn’t hold out much hope. I was right. Although Ruger currently produces a 20 round Mini-14 magazine for law enforcement, even if it was no longer restricted, Ruger would not allow anything beyond the current 5 round magazine for us mere civilians. With concealed carry legislation sweeping the country and small autos from nearly every manufacture popping up to fill that need, Ruger is not interested tapping a market geared toward concealed carry self-defense. When it comes to self-defense, Ruger is only interested in the law enforcement community, and when it comes to our rights, they are carrying on the tradition of Bill Ruger in his letter to a Congress in March 1989 urging them to pass restrictive 15 round limits to handgun magazines. For the rest of us Ruger would have us call 911. I was hoping that the politics would die with the man, no such luck, he has left his company as his legacy and we all suffer as a result.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Ruger is not a self-defense or RKBA (outside of service or sports) oriented company.

Ain't it peculiar how the 3 Rugers I have would never be on my short list for carrying anyway? I'll keep em, they were bought long ago, but Ruger don't make anything I'd seriously consider carrying.

 

[PawDaddy]

I don't really want to get in on this argument/discussion. I own two Rugers; a P95 and a GP100. I have owned 4 idfferent Smiths in the past, but sold/traded them all. I don't really know that I would buy any more of either brand. I have been hoping that Ruger would bring out a truly compact polymer auto, but it looks like it won't happen.

But, to my question.

Which gun manufacturers are pro RKBA?

 

[Double Maduro]

I have been reading this, sad to say, and have come to the conclusion that some of you haven't thought this out.

If you believe that Bill Ruger was anti RKBA (why is that always capitalized?) then he was too stupid to have made enough money to give a million bucks to the NRA.

Why would a man be anti something (rkba) that needs to be in place in order for his company to sell any product at all?

Think

If the RKBA wasn't in place then who would he sell his guns too.

Maybe he was trying to keep the anti's from getting too much from the government.

I like Ruger firearms and will continue to buy the ones I want. You see, along with the RKBA I also inherrited the right to not listen to bullies that think they are the only ones with the answers and the only ones who know how to protect my rights and even what those rights should be. Not listening to them makes them mad, and they will go away. Arguing with them just encourages them.

I think Ruger did what he thought was necessary to save his industry. Period.

By the way, saying that Ruger is anti RKBA because they don't make a concealable handgun, I don't have any problem concealing my P90, is like saying that General Motors is unpatriotic because they don't make flags.

So there,

DM

 

[fallingblock]

I believe I'll agree with this idea.....

"I like Ruger firearms and will continue to buy the ones I want. You see, along with the RKBA I also inherrited the right to not listen to bullies that think they are the only ones with the answers and the only ones who know how to protect my rights and even what those rights should be. Not listening to them makes them mad, and they will go away. Arguing with them just encourages them."
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BOYCOTT BIGOTS?



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"I think Ruger did what he thought was necessary to save his industry. Period."
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I also believe this to be the case....not to excuse old Bill for his transgressions, but the man did do more for providing the American shooter with innovative and affordable firearms than most other firearms companies have .

Bill Ruger was indeed a firearms design genius and a superb businessman.
He just couldn't resist the urge to do some politickin'.

 

[BluesBear]

Simple solution.

Ruger has ALWAYS limited the sale of their 20 & 30 round Mini-14 magazines to Law Enforcement DISTRIBUTORS only. By doing this Bill Ruger made sure that LEO would buy his guns since they were cheaper than Colt's AR-15.

Anti-RKBA or shrewd businessman?
WHO CARES?!
We all knew where to go to get quality hi-cap mags for our Mini-14s.

Ruger wouldn't make a mag larger than 10 for the 10-22.
WHO CARED?!
RamLine was there with their excellent 15round bananaclips. Complete with studs for "jungle clipping" two together.

Ruger has always made a quality product. Usually at a good price too.
Wouldn't it be akin to thumbing your nose at his/their politics by continuing to buy their products and THEN also buying the accessories that they don't offer from SOMEBODY ELSE?


WELCOME TO AMERICA Y'all.
This is the American way!!!!!

Y'all buy a S&W and don't like the grips? Buy some from someone else!

Buy a Colt/Kimber/SA/etc/etc and don't like the mainspring housing/extractor/hammer/etc/etc? Buy some from someone else!

Buy a Glock and don't like the polygonal rifling? Buy a barrel from someone else!

Buy any kind of gun and don't like the sights?
You guessed it... Buy some from someone else!

You don't like the "new" S&W? Then buy an OLD one.

If YOU don't want to buy something, THEN DON'T BUY IT!
You are entitled to your opinion just don't try to force it down my throat.


If you don't like what I buy, FINE. But SHUT UP about it.


See I told you it was simple.

 

[gun-fucious]

Whats a valuable lession for all involved is that
Ruger compromised and cooperated to keep his rifle from being named as an AW

and in 2003 the Bradyites still named the Mini 14 an Assault Weapon

 

[mtnbkr]

If Ruger were truly anti-RKBA, then they would be known only for their casting biz and not their firearms.

Chris

 

[pale horse]

I have read about all I can take on this issue.

I own 3 rugers and two of them have been 100% and the other needed some work. If all I can afford for a self defense pistol is a ruger, guess what whatever your preference is in the political views of a dead man are I dont care. I need a gun and thats all there is to it.

10/22 over 18,000 rounds and counting
mark II over 1500 rounds with some problems
P97 400 or 500 no problems with factory ammo

Based on my experience with ruger pistols, p series, they are a good product. I would have no problems selling one to my buddy or buying one myself. They are stone cold reliable and thats all there is to it.

For all of you who are on the forum some people, honest people need to have the means to defend themselves. So you spouting off you intelectual research and opinions about the firearms industry stow it. If you dont like it dont buy it. Its that simple. Ruger, S&W, Glock, H&K, CZ or anyother company dont have to consult you to run their business, it is there busniess for a reason. They owe you nothing, at all, they are in business to make money.

I will not state what I think of a specific business because it makes no difference in the way they do business. If I like the product I let my wallet speak and then the company knows how they are doing.

There is more I can say but I will refrain from doing so.

 

[Ivanimal]

Does that mean I should sell the 15 or so Rugers that I love so well? FO! I wont be told what to do. I have my own opinion on what he said and how he said it. The fact is a quality gun at a decent price is still what makes rkba affordable. God bless him for that.

 

[Werewolf]

Gun-Fucious correctly pointed out:

Whats a valuable lession for all involved is that
Ruger compromised and cooperated to keep his rifle from being named as an AW

and in 2003 the Bradyites still named the Mini 14 an Assault Weapon

That is one of the more astute and important observations made in this thread yet.

The ramifications are undeniable and at the heart of the liberal gun-grabber strategy.

If you chip away at a mountain long enough eventually there's no mountain left to chip away.

 

[J Miller]

I tried to get on THR this morning only to get a notice that it was down. Something about the data base being unable to find itself.

Now finally I get on the forum and have just wasted 10-15 minutes of my life reading this rant.

S&W haters, Ruger haters. Boycott this, boycott that.

~FINE~

Does it do any good? No, just creates a flame and causes hard feelings.

Were I a moderator this thread wouldn't have made it past the half way point of the first page. I would have locked it down. Not because of its content, but becasue of the personal attacks it contains.

***I'm sick of threads like this, it does us no good at all. We gun owners are out own worst enemies!***

 

[1badmagnum]

at least ruger's arent overpriced

ruger is known for revolvers,I happen to enjoy them because they are priced great and are great shooters.
their pistols and long guns arent so hot and their market is mainly revolvers,so the comment about high capacity mags doesnt bother me.
three ten rounders are just as good as a 30 in my book.
at least the prices aren"t inflated like smith and wesson!

 

[FPrice]

J Miller...

"***I'm sick of threads like this, it does us no good at all. We gun owners are out own worst enemies!***"

Walt Kelley (?) who did Pogo said it best, "We have met the enemy and they is us.".