Agreed. If you spend any time with ballistics simulation software, or simply looking at loads for various calibers, you'll see that some cartridge designs are much more efficient than others. That leads to the same velocity at less recoil, since combustion gasses are part of the mass traveling down the barrel.
RUM's WSSM's etc.
- Thread starter jim in Anchorage
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ExAgoradzo
Member
I love the new rounds. I get to shoot other guy's guns, add to my 'strange ammo brass' collection in my attic, and still shoot my old fashioned guns that haven't figured out they are passe. Now to get a really old gun, the .375 H&H...
Greg
Greg
Corn-Picker
Member
Another less obvious advantage to the new short cases is that their barrels are effectively longer. Compare an old school 300 H&H magnum to the 300 WSM. The H&H overall length is 3.600", whereas the WSM overall length is 2.860". Barrel length is measured from the bolt face, so a 30 caliber bullet fired from a 300 WSM with a 22" barrel has gas pushing on it for 3/4" more than the same 30 caliber bullet fired from a 300 H&H magnum with a 22" barrel. The action can also be 3/4" shorter, which just saved you 1.5" in total. This is before you account for the more efficient powder burn, which probably allows equivalent performance with another inch or two removed from the barrel.
I say all this as a guy who doesn't own a 30 caliber magnum. The rifles I use for hunting are chambered in 223, 7.62x39, and 308; because I don't reload and like inexpensive steel cased ammo for practice and lots of premium ammo options for hunting. I think people give way too much consideration to caliber. Find a rifle that fits you and turns you on, then buy it in whatever caliber is closest to the one you need. If I were buying a 30 caliber magnum I'd want it in 300 WSM, but if my favorite rifle was chambered in 300 win mag and my second favorite rifle was chambered in 300 WSM I'd go with the win mag. Not that it matters to me, there's nothing bigger than a whitetail for me to shoot around here and I'm not comfortable shooting past 200 yards, so my 308 Winchester is way more than I need.
I say all this as a guy who doesn't own a 30 caliber magnum. The rifles I use for hunting are chambered in 223, 7.62x39, and 308; because I don't reload and like inexpensive steel cased ammo for practice and lots of premium ammo options for hunting. I think people give way too much consideration to caliber. Find a rifle that fits you and turns you on, then buy it in whatever caliber is closest to the one you need. If I were buying a 30 caliber magnum I'd want it in 300 WSM, but if my favorite rifle was chambered in 300 win mag and my second favorite rifle was chambered in 300 WSM I'd go with the win mag. Not that it matters to me, there's nothing bigger than a whitetail for me to shoot around here and I'm not comfortable shooting past 200 yards, so my 308 Winchester is way more than I need.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
The ol .30-06 will do pretty much what you need it to do at a fraction of the cost or the recoil of the magnums.
Times have changed also---there is no longer a huge selection of O/U shotguns--higher end bolt action rifles or Ruger #1's in the stores anymore-----if you want a bolt action now, you are pretty much stuck with a Ruger American or Savage Axis that only come in standard calibers.
AR's, Turkish shotguns and handguns rule the roost these days.
Times have changed also---there is no longer a huge selection of O/U shotguns--higher end bolt action rifles or Ruger #1's in the stores anymore-----if you want a bolt action now, you are pretty much stuck with a Ruger American or Savage Axis that only come in standard calibers.
AR's, Turkish shotguns and handguns rule the roost these days.
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I concur completely. Lots of nostalgia with the 06 and it and many rifles will do the job. To ignore the efficiencies of the shorter fat cases is to be ignorant of the facts. I actually do most my big game hunting with a 308. I have reloaded for a long time and shot lots of bull elk with 7 mag, then 300m. The animals do not know the difference between a 2900fps 150g barnes ttsx from my 308 compared to the 180g bullet from the 300 magnums going slightly faster. My 300wsm puts out a 180g at 3200fps with superformance powder. It actually beats the 300wm I have and with 7g less powder...that is efficient. I always think about hunting with the 300wsm but the 5lb 308 is the one I seem to grab.
Swampman
Old Fart
You state that: "To ignore the efficiencies of the shorter fat cases is to be ignorant of the facts." and then go on to say that you consistently ignore your own .300 WSM when hunting in favor of your .308.
Do you ignore the .300 WSM out of ignorance, or is it because you know that the .308 is entirely adequate for your hunting needs and is actually far more efficient than any .30 caliber magnum?
You're almost like a poster child for the demise of all the "boutique magnums" that are slowly withering away.
You actually spent the money on a new 300 WSM rifle, and even though it's already sitting right there in your safe, you don't use it because you know the .308 will do the job just as well or better.
Those marketing guys are GOOD!
redneck2
Member
Saw a comparison years ago between the regular magnums vs. short mags. IIRC, the short mags get their performance gains from higher pressures.
"Obsolete" rounds are poor performers compared to newer ones, until you load up to modern pressures in modern rifles. Mysteriously the obsolete calibers have pretty much the same performance.
I have a short mag and a regular WM and have no particular allegiance either way. But, with a given bullet a certain amount of powder typically gives a certain velocity. Guys get all torqued over changing a shoulder angle half a degree, moving it forward or back, etc. If that makes you happy, have at it.
As for recoil, the physical weight of the powder is a significant part of the equation, along with bullet weight and velocity. I've never seen a recoil calculator that figured in case configuration.
Edit to add. Just went to the Nosler load data site. WSM runs 65k, a 180 gets about 2,950 with 61 grains. 300 WM runs 64k, and uses 70 grains to get close to 3,100. You can usually figure a 10% increase in powder capacity gives 2 1/2% increase in velocity.
"Obsolete" rounds are poor performers compared to newer ones, until you load up to modern pressures in modern rifles. Mysteriously the obsolete calibers have pretty much the same performance.
I have a short mag and a regular WM and have no particular allegiance either way. But, with a given bullet a certain amount of powder typically gives a certain velocity. Guys get all torqued over changing a shoulder angle half a degree, moving it forward or back, etc. If that makes you happy, have at it.
As for recoil, the physical weight of the powder is a significant part of the equation, along with bullet weight and velocity. I've never seen a recoil calculator that figured in case configuration.
Edit to add. Just went to the Nosler load data site. WSM runs 65k, a 180 gets about 2,950 with 61 grains. 300 WM runs 64k, and uses 70 grains to get close to 3,100. You can usually figure a 10% increase in powder capacity gives 2 1/2% increase in velocity.
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Swampman
Old Fart
@ Casefull
Did you not see the smiley face?
Re-read your post that I replied to, you're the one that claimed "To ignore the efficiencies of the shorter fat cases is to be ignorant of the facts."
I didn't call you or anyone else ignorant, I just asked why you ignored your .300 WSM in favor of the .308.
I imagine it's for exactly the same reason that I mostly ignore my magnums these days.
I've found that my .257 Bob kills deer and hogs just as dead, with a lot less recoil and lot less rifle to tote around.
I re-read my own post and noted the "poster child" reference. I didn't mean it to be a personal insult and I apologize if you felt that it was.
I hope that you had a happy Thanksgiving.
The "obfuscating' politician"
(AKA Swampman )
Did you not see the smiley face?
Re-read your post that I replied to, you're the one that claimed "To ignore the efficiencies of the shorter fat cases is to be ignorant of the facts."
I didn't call you or anyone else ignorant, I just asked why you ignored your .300 WSM in favor of the .308.
I imagine it's for exactly the same reason that I mostly ignore my magnums these days.
I've found that my .257 Bob kills deer and hogs just as dead, with a lot less recoil and lot less rifle to tote around.
I re-read my own post and noted the "poster child" reference. I didn't mean it to be a personal insult and I apologize if you felt that it was.
I hope that you had a happy Thanksgiving.
The "obfuscating' politician"
(AKA Swampman
)berettashotgun
Member
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Horse ain't Dead - yet???
243wssm chambered M70 Classic SS caught my fancy; but no brass to be found.
None. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.
WAS going for a 6.5 wssm..........don't know now.
243wssm chambered M70 Classic SS caught my fancy; but no brass to be found.
None. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.
WAS going for a 6.5 wssm..........don't know now.
JohnMc
Member
.25 WSSM here; I feel your pain. I'm going to keep it and wait until metal printing 3D printers can make brass cases. They actually can now, I think, but thumb sized brass skulls or other similar trinkets are $10 or $15 each.
I do have enough brass to last until then, hopefully...
A person with a .222 Rem., a 7x57 and a .375 H&H could hunt any game in the world. When you think about modern cartridges not much has changed in a century. Bullet technology and modern machining has moved ballistics to a higher level. But the tool it's self remains almost unchanged.
Catpop
Member
Just as 50 years has improvrd the basic 392 hemi hp from 1200 to 8000 and reduced elasped 1/4 mile times from 7 seconds to 3 seconds; so has the evolution of cartridge cases and velocity.
But I'll stick with my 1967 301 mouse and my 300 HH. Why? its what i cut my teeth on and hence it is part of me. Others have a different history and so we can all be happy with our choices.
The problem with today's world is, political corectness has conditioned a few to not be satisfied until they have forced their ideas on everyone else. That part too has evolved from the 1960s.
But I'll stick with my 1967 301 mouse and my 300 HH. Why? its what i cut my teeth on and hence it is part of me. Others have a different history and so we can all be happy with our choices.
The problem with today's world is, political corectness has conditioned a few to not be satisfied until they have forced their ideas on everyone else. That part too has evolved from the 1960s.
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I can appreciate my 375 h&h for how good it still is in terms of usefulness when compared to modern hot rod rounds. I also enjoy loading my 300wsm to equal and in some cases surpass what my 300 win mag can do with less powder in a shorter action, easier carrying rifle. And now that I am older and wiser I usually hunt with one of my 308's because they kill 'em just as dead as my magnums. I never get why it cannot be both. Some of us drive chevy's and ford's.
.455_Hunter
Member
I am about to turn 40 and could care less about 95% of the "new products" in the shooting sports. Soulless black plastic rifles shooting some stupid new short cartridge with plastic tipped bullets- NOT INTERESTED!
Poper
Member
berettashotgun,
I have been in gun liquidating mode lately to accumulate funds for cataract surgery, as my medical deductible is $5k.
If you are honestly interested in a 6.5WSSM, I have one I built on a Browning A-Bolt I will part with. I'll even include the brass for it. About 300 rounds more or less.
Drop me a PM. Let's talk.
berettashotgun
Member
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sent you an email.........will send pm
Ash
Member
The big elephant in the room that nobody mentions is market share of existing firearms and the proven effectiveness of those arms current in use. The 30-06 is without doubt the most common bolt action rifle in America. They don't wear out so you easily encounter 60 year old bolt action 30-06's that are in regular use today as hunting rifles (older ones, too). Decades of being the most common hunting rifle, along with the ubiquitous 270 and then other common rounds like 308, 30-30, .243, 300 mags, and 7mm Mag, you get a market saturated with arms that cover the gamut of needs in North America. A man whose rifle reliably and consistently kills his intended target is likely a satisfied man.
Sure, he could hunt with something marginally more efficient, in a marginally lighter and shorter gun, but why drop another $500 when his own hunting experience will not be improved? In the woods of Mississippi, all the boutique rounds mentioned have vastly reduced value and utility. Our shots are not super long-distance where bullet drop becomes an issue. As a general rule, our shots are under 300 yards, often closer than 100 yards. All the efficiencies in the world become moot. They offer nothing better than the tried-and-true rounds already offer (is 1/2 pound lighter and 1/2 inch shorter really worth the money?) in the real world. The same is true for the woods of Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia, and other places.
So, the man who has a rifle because he loves hunting, not because he is a gun nut, has what reason to discard his ammo and rifle for a new round? And if he discards said rifle and rounds by selling it, the buyer has no reason to discard his new purchase in favor of something with more limited availability but no greater effective performance.
Those legions of owners of traditional, marginally less-efficient rifles buy ammo. They buy vast amounts as a whole. Nobody will stop making 30-06 ammo for decades even if no new rifles show up in 30-06 because of the colossal numbers of chambered rifles out there. And nothing that requires a bullet to be mounted on case containing propellant powder can possibly be introduced that will bake the 30-06 obsolete. Nothing at all that exists on the planet in small arms ammo makes the 30-06 obsolete today. Nothing. Since nothing does (and those who are about to argue the point go look up the definition of obsolete first), the best a round can do is prove it does the same thing as a 30-06 only more efficiently, faster, shorter, what ever. But nothing out today renders any current rounds obsolete. Even 30-30 remains viable and useful (and thus not obsolete) given the effectiveness in wooded areas and the vast number of chambered rifles.
So, in the end, any new cartridge must rob market share from the vast quantities of arms and users already out there. Nothing new that comes out is so much better as to be worth the increased costs associated with them for a tremendous number of hunters. Those hunters buy ammo. They buy ammo for the arms they currently own. Those arms they currently own are still by tremendous numbers in that cadre of traditional or currently common rounds.
Without commanding market share, newly-introduced rounds have very little chance of going anywhere once the buzz wears off. Check out the .45 GAP.
Sure, he could hunt with something marginally more efficient, in a marginally lighter and shorter gun, but why drop another $500 when his own hunting experience will not be improved? In the woods of Mississippi, all the boutique rounds mentioned have vastly reduced value and utility. Our shots are not super long-distance where bullet drop becomes an issue. As a general rule, our shots are under 300 yards, often closer than 100 yards. All the efficiencies in the world become moot. They offer nothing better than the tried-and-true rounds already offer (is 1/2 pound lighter and 1/2 inch shorter really worth the money?) in the real world. The same is true for the woods of Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia, and other places.
So, the man who has a rifle because he loves hunting, not because he is a gun nut, has what reason to discard his ammo and rifle for a new round? And if he discards said rifle and rounds by selling it, the buyer has no reason to discard his new purchase in favor of something with more limited availability but no greater effective performance.
Those legions of owners of traditional, marginally less-efficient rifles buy ammo. They buy vast amounts as a whole. Nobody will stop making 30-06 ammo for decades even if no new rifles show up in 30-06 because of the colossal numbers of chambered rifles out there. And nothing that requires a bullet to be mounted on case containing propellant powder can possibly be introduced that will bake the 30-06 obsolete. Nothing at all that exists on the planet in small arms ammo makes the 30-06 obsolete today. Nothing. Since nothing does (and those who are about to argue the point go look up the definition of obsolete first), the best a round can do is prove it does the same thing as a 30-06 only more efficiently, faster, shorter, what ever. But nothing out today renders any current rounds obsolete. Even 30-30 remains viable and useful (and thus not obsolete) given the effectiveness in wooded areas and the vast number of chambered rifles.
So, in the end, any new cartridge must rob market share from the vast quantities of arms and users already out there. Nothing new that comes out is so much better as to be worth the increased costs associated with them for a tremendous number of hunters. Those hunters buy ammo. They buy ammo for the arms they currently own. Those arms they currently own are still by tremendous numbers in that cadre of traditional or currently common rounds.
Without commanding market share, newly-introduced rounds have very little chance of going anywhere once the buzz wears off. Check out the .45 GAP.
berettashotgun
Member
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One of the main reasons I have bought about 30calibers - is reloading.
Actually used to be a little more rewarding when I didn't have to search so hard for components.
I FIRMLY believe the WSSM cases are a great fit for the bench in 6.5 and larger bullets with the proper length barrel - especially when/IF some proper brass comes along.
I'm not holding my breath for it, but it MIGHT happen if I wish hard enough............
Reloading for the RUM and RSUM was worth it, as was shooting these calibers.
Nothing like torching off 100gr. of powder behind a 300gr. bullet in a 375 Ultramag, (at paper)or realizing the 7mm RSUM shooting 180grvld's only needed 23MOA at 1k with a 100yd zero.
Yeah -the 30-03 is excellent, I LOVE mine, but it ain't a wife - don't want to stay "faithful" to a caliber............
Actually used to be a little more rewarding when I didn't have to search so hard for components.
I FIRMLY believe the WSSM cases are a great fit for the bench in 6.5 and larger bullets with the proper length barrel - especially when/IF some proper brass comes along.
I'm not holding my breath for it, but it MIGHT happen if I wish hard enough............
Reloading for the RUM and RSUM was worth it, as was shooting these calibers.
Nothing like torching off 100gr. of powder behind a 300gr. bullet in a 375 Ultramag, (at paper)or realizing the 7mm RSUM shooting 180grvld's only needed 23MOA at 1k with a 100yd zero.
Yeah -the 30-03 is excellent, I LOVE mine, but it ain't a wife - don't want to stay "faithful" to a caliber............
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