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run-in with ms-13 member on hollywood boulevard

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by seansean, Jun 5, 2005.

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  1. seansean

    seansean Member

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    hi-so, 2 days ago, I'm walking down hollywood blvd, in hollywood, ca. A male hispanic, shaved head, wearing all blue, and carrying a stick of some kind, comes alongside me and asks me if I was the guy talking s**t to his "homie", I say no(btw, no ca ccw, no gun or anything else on me) He said something under his breath that sounded insulting, so instead of being scared, I get pissed and tell him to back off or I'll shove that stick... well, you can guess where. I also called him a gangbanging p.o.s. He threw gang signs at me, and verbally indentified himself as ms-13(I thought crip up until then because of the all blue outfit) and walked to the other side of the street. As I approach vine st, I realize he's been tracking me on the other side of the street and is waiting for me at the corner of hollywood and vine, right in my way. I cross, and get in his face. I dare him to hit me with the stick, call him a p***y, and keep walking. His response is to call me a f***ing n****r
    and scurry towards the nearby subway station. I guess this is more vent than anything else, because I'm not allowed to carry a gun in this city, and this is clearly a situation where it might've come in handy. I doubt pepper spray would've done the trick with this dude if it had gotten physical. Any thoughts on what I should carry for everyday self-defense?
     
  2. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    Had the situation gotten to a point where you had to draw a firearm, based on your description of events, you would probably be looking at the loss of your license, firearm, and freedom.

    Instead of attempting to avoid escalating the encounter, you chose to further inflame events.

    What you need to carry is a greater sense of humility and the self-confidence to simply say 'no' and walk away without further inflammatory comments.
     
  3. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    OTOH, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. He wasn't armed and had to do with what he had. He did well. If he had been armed, just walking away would have been the prudent thing to do. Just walking away, of course, would prompt further aggression, and eventually the need to shoot the POS.
     
  4. CentralTexas

    CentralTexas Member

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    Yes,

    "Carry" your ass out of Kali like I did....
    CT
     
  5. seansean

    seansean Member

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    Beren,there's some truth to that, on the other hand, I should be able to walk to borders books without some idiot accosting me, inflammatory comments or not. He did follow me down the street, and I was unarmed. I wasn't looking for trouble.
     
  6. hightech

    hightech Member

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    Self Defense

    Beren is correct IF you were carrying a firearm and contributed to the altercation you may loose your right to the use of deadly force in self defense. Since you have to be unarmed in CA. :cuss: and depending on the tactical situation a good offense maybe the best defense. In a one on one situation it many time is the best defense. This is a case by case decision depending a lot on your own capabilities.
     
  7. Chuck Dye

    Chuck Dye Member

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    California Penal Code section 415: Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment and fine: (1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or challenges another person in a public place to fight. (2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another person by loud and unreasonable noise. (3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.

    When you went in pursuit you made yourself the bad guy. Given that any witnesses interviewed after a fight would likely have seen you only from the time of your crossing the street in pursuit and not the preliminary confrontation, your victim would have had the advantage in court.
     
  8. seansean

    seansean Member

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    I didn't cross the street to pursue him, I was going that way anyway.(borders is on sunset and vine, about 3 blks south from that corner) now, I could've waited until he left, but I did not cross that street to inflame the situation further, I was simply continuing on my way. And I don't think anyone like that, looking to cause trouble, should be afforded "victim" status as your post suggests.
     
  9. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    His post isn't so much suggesting it as showing you the relevant section of law. When you went up to the punk and dared him to hit you, you crossed a line. You became an aggressor. Whether that was the right thing to do to avoid a violent confrontation is different from whether it was legal. You then called him a p****. All in all, your actions, as you've described, seem to fall within the realm of 'inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.'

    It's hard to make a case for self-defense when you tell the judge "Yeah, I dared that punk to hit me. And he did! So I beat the crap out of him/peppersprayed him/shot him dead right there!"

    I don't live in a state which encourages a 'predator friendly society' so maybe I can't sympathize as much. Here, I'm licensed to carry a firearm and I keep a low profile. Even if I'm unarmed these days, I keep a low profile. I simply don't see much potential gain out of provoking violence, even if they provoked me first.
     
  10. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    One of the things carrying did for me is mellow me out. I can play the intimidation game, and I can throw first if it looks like there'll be no choice.

    But when you're carrying, the realization is "if this gets out of control, I might have to kill this meathead," and that's something that leads to a much different outlook on life. It doesn't matter if he calls you "******" -- you're talking about death and all that entails. You don't kill over names, and you don't kill over some primate's ego-trip.

    It's also something that probably comes across subliminally to others -- that, or the fact that weight on my hip prompts increased situational awareness...

    Either way, you can't live that way if you're gonna carry. Carrying is for people who are aware of all their buttons and either disable them or refuse to let others press them. So what if he said something "insulting" under his breath -- he's a POS that matters not one bit in the long run, and the encounter was over at that point.

    You could have let it remain over, rather than engaging your ego. If you'd been carrying and had ended up killing the fool (or worse -- disabling him for life) the legal system would have expected you to keep your ego out of it.
     
  11. Chuck Dye

    Chuck Dye Member

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    Sorry, I guess I could have made my "Officer’s point of view" more clear. Watch a football game. Defender fouls receiver, receiver takes umbrage and retaliates, referee sees only the retaliation and nails the receiver. In the scene seansean describes he is very likely to find that the only witnesses will describe a pursuit and 415 violation without provocation. If the 'banger maintains his cool, he wins.
     
  12. Arc-Lite

    Arc-Lite Member

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    walking in that part of LA....I would be surprised if you just had a normal day...if you escalate, then you best have a plan hatched, to win, and quickly....or, address his questions and keep distance, and walk away.... if you must fight, fight your battle, not his.
     
  13. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Exactly. When confronted with a bully threatening bodily harm always lay down and take a beating. It will look better for you in court. :rolleyes:

    *** is WRONG with you people? :confused:
     
  14. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    I think seansean's "I don't crap from any POS gangbanger" approach was appropriate in this situation. HOWEVER, that attitude can be communicated in a non-verbal fashion (a staring look, a confident walk, and not changing your path) that sends the right message but still does not legally escalate the situation.

    BTW, welcome to THR. I hope you become involved in the fight in CA to allow the basic human right to self-defense.
     
  15. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    It's not "take a beating," it's "behave like an adult, and leave that teenage crap behind."

    If you've gotta fight and you kill the guy, I don't care. As long as you have to fight. From the story the OP posted, it doesn't sound like this was a necessary conflict, and should it have come to blows, it would have come up later that he could have easily avoided it.

    This was a confrontation that both parties seemed to want to happen.

    If you like to live that way then cool. Just understand that that mindset and set of behavior patterns, mixed with the everpresent pistol, might eventually land the poster in a situation where things "just got out of hand" due to his inability to disengage himself from some macho bull???? mindset he's carrying.

    If you wanna walk around armed, you're gonna get in trouble unless you live a conflict-avoidance lifestyle. That means if some guy calls your girlfirend a "hot bitch" and starts making comments about what he'd like to do to her, then you walk away. Blow him away if he escalates it, but he gets a free ride as long as you can get out of it without a physical confrontation.

    You can argue that times were simpler and better when duels were common and "fighting words" was a justification for an ass-whipping.

    That world doesn't exist any more, however. Best learn that now and come to grips with it before life gets its teeth in you.
     
  16. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    VERY BAD MOVE! If you're not packing, that's a bad move because the other guy might be. If you ARE packing, it's an even worse move since it makes you the aggressor and may end up destroying a self defense justification if you have to shoot him later.

    If you ever do live in a state where you can carry, you must always make a point of avoiding conflict and ignoring insults. Smile. Apologize for misunderstandings. Show respect even to those who do nothing to deserve it. With the power of the firearm comes the responsibility to act like an adult. And if you ever forget that fact, a jury of 12 will be there to remind you of it.
     
  17. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    I have to agree wtih the "Bad move" camp. Even if you were armed, it still would have been a bad move. When going about one's daily affairs while armed, it is best to practice the "Kwai Chang Caine" school of thought. Don't let others rile you, only YOU can disrespect your honor, fight only if there is no other choice.
     
  18. GRB

    GRB member

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    eansean,

    You may have thought it a smart move to get right into this guy's face and there is a chance it saved you from more than just a verbal altercation but, there is also a great chance that such could get you killed in another type of altercation just like this one. For example I can think of at least three instances where victims told gang members to shut up and shove off and the results were quite different from yours. One lady was recently killed in NYC (within last 6 months or so) when she said to the guy something to the effect of: "What are you going to do a-hole, shoot me?" That is exactly what he did right after he pistol whipped her boyfriend. She is dead.

    Another many years ago, also in NYC where a man answered back to a gang member much as you did. The gang member immediately drew a large knife and killed the gentleman who had the nerve to talk back to the punk. This, as I remember, was some sort of a gang initiation rite and required the gang member to kill the first person who got into a verbal altercation with him.

    What you accomplished was to obviously catch your guy off guard but, as you said he followed you. He did not want to lose face. Chances are he had no one else with him and that is why he ultimately backed off. Had there been other gang members - in the background and unseen by you - he would very likely have to have taken action to save face. That action could have well resulted in him trying to kill you.

    I think your best course of action would have been to firmly tell him "No it wasn't me. Now do both of us a favor and back off and leave me alone." Then make sure to stay in the crowd or at least in plain view of others as you go on your way; checking your 360 often but with confidence and not like a lost sheep. If you see him following you, you call the police.

    As it turned out, your guy took off but, he will not forget you if he is local. To me it sounds as if you were local to your home turf - you said you were going to the store I think. So now that guy can find you just about anytime. he may still want to save face. You can just about bet dollars to doughnuts that if he approaches you again it will either be while he is with friends or while he is armed or both and, that he will be looking for trouble. You will have to deal with it as best you can. I would suggest some form of legal self defense device be carried with you, at the bare minimum maybe some strong pepper spray, or pepper foam (if those are legal). Use them only in self defense when legally justified to do so..

    Best regards,
    Glenn B
     
  19. Soap

    Soap Member

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    Don't take any crap...but don't sling any either.
     
  20. akluvr

    akluvr Member

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    Tough call on this one. Normal human reaction is to meet attitude with attitude. It's hard to maintain when someone is in your face looking for a confrontation. This is where the rubber meets the road. OC spray would be a good choice in a no carry situation. It is a distance weapon that lets you do your thing and run like crazy, putting even more distance between yourself and an attacker. Note that I said attacker. In this situation, it might have been better to say no, like mentioned above, and volley the ball back to his court. Let the escalation be on the others part, and meet force with force if it comes to that. Anything else, try to remove yourself from a bad situation before it gets worse. When you are left with nothing else but force, it is a little more defendable in court. BTW, welcome to THR, it is a pretty good group of level headed folks here. A lot of us have been through the fire and come back to talk about it, so there is some good info to be gleaned.
     
  21. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    Well seansean, it obviously worked (this time) cause you're alive, well and posting.

    It's easy for me to sit here and Monday morning keyboard quarterback, I wasn't there.

    Next time, however, you might meet a man of action carrying a stick of some kind who decides that talking is for others and takes action when you tell him to use that stick. And that might ruin your whole day... or life.

    Might I suggest some Aikido classes (or the equivilent) for those unarmed moments in life when unwanted, potentially dangerous people get in your face? Or maybe an unbreakable umbrella or walking cane?

    http://www.aikido.com/
    http://www.self-defense.info/umbrella1.html
    http://www.canemasters.com/

    It is the man, not the tool, who is dangerous.

    The advice offered by others here is worthy of taking to heart, if you so choose.

    Stay safe.

    By any chance, did you go to Borders to purchase Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"? :D
     
  22. crofrog

    crofrog Member

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    Avoidness, Deterness, Desclatation... Those are the 3 thing's that will make you survive life and if the time comes to engage after you've tried to avoid, deter and desclate the sitiuation it will make you well within your legal grounds.

    This man neiter avoided (crossing the street into his path) or desclated. In fact he both presued and eslcated. That's not the way to stay alive very long, and if you do "win" the engagment you are going to loose it in criminal and civil court. With an attitude the orginal poster had it's probally better he didn't have any use of force options.
     
  23. seansean

    seansean Member

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    By any chance, did you go to Borders to purchase Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"?
    ______

    That's next on the list, after I finish reading "The art of war". :) I do have some martial arts training(blue belt, tae kwon do) so I can handle myself reasonably well. although, point taken about what happens if I run into this guy again. I'll just be a little more careful from now on.
     
  24. dev_null

    dev_null Member

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    I'm just wondering what happens next time seansean's in the area and "ese" has 3-4 of his bros with him...
     
  25. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    Obviously we werent there but we were invited to QB the situation. I'm with the "getting into trouble/going to jail because of some dumb ape just aint worth it" crowd. Merely calling me a name doesnt make me that thing. Now if he got aggressive, I dont know. I can also see the side that says, if we dont stand up to petty aggression it will just get worse. But overall avoidance is the best strategy.
     
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