run-in with ms-13 member on hollywood boulevard

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His aggresive behavior is what kept the banger from swinging that stick.

I say you read the situation and acted correctly. Go with your gut instinct.

Punks are not likley to attack aggresive confident people, heck I bet the banger thought you had a gun since you were not all "scared".

I say good job!
 
gang members are scared easily when they are by themselves. That, my friends, is why they are in a gang. They have automatic back-up this way. The motivation for joining a gang (besides economics) is protection from others in the form of "safety in numbers."
 
He said something under his breath that sounded insulting, so instead of being scared, I get pissed and tell him to back off or I'll shove that stick... well, you can guess where. I also called him a gangbanging p.o.s.

I cross, and get in his face. I dare him to hit me with the stick, call him a p***y, and keep walking.

Do those of us not looking for a fight a favor, and stay in CA. Should they ever pass shall-issue CCW, please refrain from applying.

Edited to add: I can see the headlines now...
 
A couple of things popped into my mind while reading this. One is that some predators are encouraged by submissive behavior. If you are doing your best to be non-threatening and inoffensive and the threat isn't going away or seems to be working himself up more, then you need to start considering some alternatives. Obviously aggression worked in this case to deter the potential predator. A more submissive approach might have just encouraged him. At the same time, the more submissive approach gives you a lot better options if you end up in court and in general tends to be more effective at deescalating situations.

Another important point is the prevalence of cameras and witnesses in public places. What are witnesses going to tell the police? Especially ones who only caught part of the show? Do you look like the aggressor? What is that CCTV system with no sound from the corner grocery store going to show? Who looks like the aggressor?
 
As has been said already, you're lucky you didn't get killed.

I went to several shootings where some regular guy made the mistake of just looking the wrong way at a gang banger.

It feels good to put the little sh*ts in their place, but not worth a couple of .25's in the belly IMHO.
 
All of you whose first priority is "how will this look in court?" don't have any defense strategy at all IMO, and have no business even critiquing someone else's.

Maybe it's not your fault. Maybe you'd been to too many 'tactical' seminars taught by some former LEO whose entire perspective on life is "how will this look in court?" Whatever the reason, I strongly suggest you focus on surviving the initial confrontation lest the judge have to visit you in ICU to take your testimony.
 
All of you whose first priority is "how will this look in court?" don't have any defense strategy at all IMO, and have no business even critiquing someone else's.
Consideration of all consequences of action is a very basic part of strategy. Consideration of what can legally be done or not is the very basis of CCW. When we look at a scenario we have to examine all possible and likely outcomes, and that includes being hauled up on charges.
I think I see why CA doesnt have shall-issue laws.
 
So far they have only been chopping up hands of "fellow" gang-bangers, and leaving the rest of us alone.
Perhaps not...

SPRINGFIELD, Va. Court documents in Fairfax County show there's been another machete attack -- and area police may have sat on the information. The Washington Post reports an 18-year-old Springfield man told police he was attacked after ignoring gang hand signals.
<snip>
Police believe the M-S 13 gang is responsible.

Source: http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=3426691
I've not seen any references to the MS-13 [CENSORED] here in Colorado. Yet. But I'd not be overly surprised (as in 'Not at all') to learn of 'em here.
Consideration of all consequences of action is a very basic part of strategy.
Quite true. Which is why I think strategy should be considered and decided BEFORE one is facing a tattooed hooligan w/ an attitude on the street.
 
When we look at a scenario we have to examine all possible and likely outcomes, and that includes being hauled up on charges.
You have no control on whether you will be 'hauled up on charges' or not, even if you do everything exactly right. While you're standing there ruminating on the possible legal ramifications, you might just find yourself dead. Your priority is to meet force with greater force. De-escalation is a noble concept, and may work with an otherwise reasonable man. Gang members are not reasonable men.
 
Riley, you're encouraging this guy to get himself in a world of hurt. You're also setting up and knocking down straw men. Nobody suggested he should lay down and take a beating. They told him he should not have gone looking for a fight, which is precisely what he did. They also told him he should not have escalated the encounter by responding with insults and taunting a gangbanger, which, again, is precisely what he did.

Your contention that these people are "only concerned with how things look in court" is another straw man. Nobody here ever said that the court phase is more important than defending yourself. What they said is that crossing the street to taunt a gangbanger who has already threatened you is NOT self-defense and will not be viewed that way in court.

Since you're the expert on having a "defense strategy," perhaps you can explain how continuing to pursue a belligerent gangbanger fits into your "defense strategy." The guy had given him distance and the opportunity to move along without incident, without submission, and without violence, and he just couldn't bring himself to take it because he simply had to woof and act like a badass. Even if you completely ignore what might happen to you in court (because real men don't mind prison as long as they get to show the scum who's boss) are you really saying that the smartest "tactical" move he could have made in this situation was to woof out threats he had no idea if he could carry out and then continue to look for a fight?

He had the chance to end it and he chose to keep it going. There's no reason for that. He got lucky. I'm not normally this harsh, but your insistence on misleading this poor guy into thinking he did something smart here and he should do it again could literally get him killed.
That would be bad.
 
*** is WRONG with you people?

Wrong question. Correct question would ask what is wrong with our laws on self defense and assault.

Personally, I think that I have a perfect right to walk down any sidewalk in perfect peace. You want to be left in peace by me? Leave me in peace. You don't want me to insult you? Well, I won't insult you. I will ignore your insults. But I won't retreat and I won't fight you hand to hand. Due to my physical condition...I can't take the chance of being hit in the head, neck, or upper back. If a blow is launched then I will shoot to stop it. I might be charged but I might not, also for I live in a state that doesn't tolerate idiots that try to beat on others. In any event, that won't do my attacker much good for I'll be in court after reaching slide lock on him...maybe multiple slide locks. We'll see if my medical experts' testimony can convince the jury that I acted as a reasonable man. Seeing as how I can lose my balance simply walking...I don't think a jury would believe that I should have run away. I can't run. I don't think the jury will think that I should have defended myself hand to hand while falling down.

Personally, I think there is only one thing that barbarians understand and that one thing is superior force. Don't want problems with gangbanges? As a society, we need to be killing them every time they utter an aggressive word. That's illegal? Simple solution...LET'S CHANGE THE LAWS.

If someone calls a man's wife a slut as the couple walks down the sidewalk, and the man beats the guy's eyes out...he got what he was asking for and it should be so ruled in a court of law. As in,"Son, it's terrible what happened to you. Maybe next time you'll keep your mouth shut before someone uses a sledgehammer on it. Case dismissed."

Concealed carry does not mean that I must be a doormat, people. I'm not going to be belligerent but I'm not going to be craven, either. If they come at me looking for trouble then one of two things will happen: a)they will have a change of heart and go elsewhere, or b)they will find trouble. And it won't be because I incited trouble or threw insults back at them. I won't. However, I will continue to do exactly what I was doing when accosted and when they try to escalate things beyond words into physical contact then I will begin to shoot. I will continue to shoot until their attempts at physical contact cease or I run out of ammunition. Then I'll draw my Kershaw.
 
Such hostility all around in this mistaken identity situation...

Seriously, would a nice hug have been all that difficult?


.
 
…no business even critiquing someone else's… …focus on surviving the initial confrontation…

Avoid it. Evade it. Escape it. Deal with it.

On the home ground, going about his own business, seansean probably cannot be faulted on avoidance.

In the initial post the ‘banger appears out of the blue. Possibly, though, the ‘banger appeared out of the fog of condition white. Given the (wishful?) idea that we all have free use of the public way, I will concede that no points were available for evasion prior to the initial confrontation. Points off for the P.C. 415 violation "I get pissed and tell him to back off or I'll shove that stick... well, you can guess where. I also called him a gangbanging p.o.s." This is not evasive behavior.

The ‘banger disengaged. Seansean spotted the ‘banger from across the intersection and , rather than take advantage of the separation to get away, waded back in to compound the 415 violation. No escape, flat refusal to avoid/evade.

The situation was "dealt with" as most testosterone soaked, display mode, cock o’ the walk shows are: the two cocks strutted away unharmed. With no input as to the skills and inclinations of the pair, my bet would have been on the ‘banger with the stick. No tears for the loser, either way it might have gone.

This is how I see it as it looked in the street. Anyone getting into a fight has, in fact, potentially gotten into three fights: the immediate combat, the criminal prosecution, and the civil action. I prefer to remain well short of the "Deal with it" stage of all three possibilities.

Edit to add: Thank you Don Gwinn. Composing in the wordprocessor is helpful but slow. You beat me to it.
 
A couple of things popped into my mind while reading this. One is that some predators are encouraged by submissive behavior. If you are doing your best to be non-threatening and inoffensive and the threat isn't going away or seems to be working himself up more, then you need to start considering some alternatives. Obviously aggression worked in this case to deter the potential predator. A more submissive approach might have just encouraged him. At the same time, the more submissive approach gives you a lot better options if you end up in court and in general tends to be more effective at deescalating situations.

I think you confuse "submisive" and "agressive" leaving out the middle ground of being submisive enough and agressive enough.

He was 100% agressive perhaps more agressive than the attacker. You can protrude a confident don't ???? with me attidude with out engaging him directly with a "please hit me" statement. Keep your head up, stand your ground but don't escalate. There is a difference between telling him to go away etc, and asking him to hit you with his stick. Verbalize the commands forcibly but in a non-agressive manner. It's the whole quite profensional thing. Don't be loud and agressive unless you have to, but once it's game time there's no holds barred.

Chris
 
As for the "Move out of California" comment, MS-13 is becoming a problem everywhere.
We have a large number of them in the DC area.

heh, I think "Move out of DC" (and NY/NJ/CHI/etc) was pretty much implied. We're not saying "move away from MS-13". We're saying "move somewhere you can shoot back."



as for the original scenario, I don't think it was the wisest course of action, but I suspect that if he were carrying, like the rest of us, his response would have been somewhat less escalatory. My approach would probably have been to attempt to befriend the guy. Or depending, to do a pre-emptive strike like "hey, can I borrow a dollar?"
 
My approach would probably have been to attempt to befriend the guy.

"Hey- you the guy talking s**t to my homie ?"

"Nope. But I can help you look for him, and then we can kick his ass together, my new friend."

(cooperative de-escalation?)
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Seansean, here's my take.

You did great in the first half of your story.

In the first half of your story, you did not look like prey, and you avoided the fight. Good job there.

However, you did really, really lousy in the second half of your story.

When you walked up to the gangbanger and "dared him" to hit you with the stick, I'd say you did just about everything wrong. You instigated a second contact with the scum, and actually tried to instigate a fight.

You had a chance to walk away from the situation, and you did not.

You had a chance to avoid all further contact with the gangbanger low-life, and you did not.

What happens if gangbanger goes upside your head with the stick?

What happens if gangbanger whistles and three more gangbanger lowlifes walk up to his side?

What happens if gangbanger drops his stick, and whips out a big knife or a gun from out of his waistband?

By making a second contact with the gangbanger, and in addition daring the scum to hit you with the stick, you crossed a line. I'd say that was a pretty poor choice that luckily didn't blow up in your face this time.

Live and learn.

hillbilly
 
Talking sh*t is not self defense. Those of you whose ego's are bigger than your brain, should look into penile enhancement surgery before you get yourself killed.
 
You have to be real carefull. I also live in LA. Gang members, at least the real ones that I've seen in action are known to ask questions regarding anything just to provoke and have a chance at escalating the situation. They're looking to impress their freinds. They can try to mess you up just to have bragging rights or let their buddies know they're for real.

The whole purpose from the start may have been confrontation. Yes something you did may or may not have have prevented escalation of the situation. I would have addressed said individual in a confident manner but I would still have been very carefull. In broad daylight with people around the gang member may have been prevented from pulling a knife or firearm, but at a different time of day with no one around the whole situation could change. Avoid these people at all costs if you can. It doesn't mean you're a coward just because you use your head.
 
As much as my gut and brain says you shouldn't have said a thing and done your best to deflate the conflict my heart says it's damn good to see another gangbanger piece of scum running away with his tail between his legs! :evil:

Yeah, it might have gotten you killed but I still enjoyed reading it. Dude walked up and thought he was going to bully someone and bit off more than he could chew. I just hope it doesn't come back to haunt you somehow!

brad cook
 
"Nope. But I can help you look for him, and then we can kick his ass together, my new friend."
ROFL!
Yeah, it might have gotten you killed but I still enjoyed reading it. Dude walked up and thought he was going to bully someone and bit off more than he could chew.
Sure. But better him than me.

Last weekend I was driving in Minneapolis when I was tailgated very closely. I tapped on the brakes to ask the driver behind me to make some space. He didn't. Instead, he aggressively rode my bumper.

As soon as possible, I moved to the other lane. At the next light, the car drew even with me and its window rolled down. Two badass-looking guys were looking hard at me. I gave them a wan smile and said, "Sorry!"

The driver nodded in satisfaction and pulled away.

Hey, he was wrong to tailgate, and he was a jerk to keep doing it. He was aggressively looking to start something at the light.

So I gave him a little show of respect. He drove away knowing he was the big dog, and I, well, drove away.

I had a 9mm in my lap and could have defended myself if it came to that, but, hey, it's my job to try to make sure that it doesn't.

Growing up -- it's a good thing.
 
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But when you're carrying, the realization is "if this gets out of control, I might have to kill this meathead," and that's something that leads to a much different outlook on life. It doesn't matter if he calls you "******" -- you're talking about death and all that entails. You don't kill over names, and you don't kill over some primate's ego-trip.

I wanted to quote this because it is 100% on the money and I had a similar realization a few weeks ago when someone tried awful hard to get me into a fight with them while I was carrying at work.
 
I agree that sean's crossing the street to re-engage was a very bad move. Not because it might not look good in court, but because he increased his risk of injury or death by so doing. He already had distance between him and the threat, there was no reason to give up that advantage.

My point is that if you're stopping to run each action of affirmative defense through the filter of speculative court proceedings, you're not really focused on the immeidate threat and how to defend against it.

Not escalating a situation is one thing. Assuming an attitude of prey is another, and will likely encourage further aggression. Verbal insults are one thing, verbal threats of injury or death are another. It might be wise to deflect insults; smile or even apologize so as not to exacerbate the situation. Verbal threats, especially when made by someone in close enough proximity to you to carry them out must be taken seriously. Verbal threats indicate the aggressor is thinking about actually doing something to hurt you. If you assume a recessive intimidated posture, you're likely to be physically attacked IMO.
 
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