jcwit
member
Well give them all a tank and we can have a waco form sea to shining sea.
S.C. Sheriff's Department Armored Vehicle with Belt-Fed Machine Gun
- Thread starter thegriz
- Start date
- Status
Crash_Test_Dhimmi
Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 256
I agree, As a guy who is actually in Iraq, this material needs to be in Iraq, or in a National guard Armory Stateside, not in the hands of a civilian police force.
Ive seen lots of APCs here such as this. It is a weapon for occupation. Im all for occupying other countries, its another thing when we start distro'ing out the means of occupation in order for local powers to occupy our own country.
if the Police actually need more firepower, they have a plethora of armed federal Agencies, and national guardsmen to call up. There is a reason its a big deal, with red tape to call in for more firepower, so it doesnt get abused.
But maybe im wrong, maybe there is a bullhorn on the front of it, that belches your miranda rights, to make everything nice and constitutional.
Once upon a time the government, our government, turned armored collumns against its own people (Patton during the Bonus Marches/Protests).
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Ive seen lots of APCs here such as this. It is a weapon for occupation. Im all for occupying other countries, its another thing when we start distro'ing out the means of occupation in order for local powers to occupy our own country.
if the Police actually need more firepower, they have a plethora of armed federal Agencies, and national guardsmen to call up. There is a reason its a big deal, with red tape to call in for more firepower, so it doesnt get abused.
But maybe im wrong, maybe there is a bullhorn on the front of it, that belches your miranda rights, to make everything nice and constitutional.
Once upon a time the government, our government, turned armored collumns against its own people (Patton during the Bonus Marches/Protests).
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
plexreticle
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,240
I can't think of any situation where a civilian police department would need a heavy machine gun.
ScottsGT
Member
OK, I've read almost 5 pages of why, why, why?? Sheriff Lott is a good man. No, he's a great man, and Sheriff. Why do I say this? Because I've been in Richland County back before he was Sheriff. The last Sheriff left the dept. like a pig stie, and Lott has turned it around. He personally has chased down crack head car thiefs himself on the streets of Richland county and arrested them without backup.
Oh, and the APC, it was free (or almost, something like $1000) to the taxpayers. It was given to the Dept. by the military. As far as the .50, Lott said on a local talk radio show that it won't be mounted all the time, just on an "as needed basis" which he went on to admit will probably be never. But that it is all a PR tool for the dept. He would like to keep it if the need ever arises as in someone hiding behind heavy brick walls shooting at his Deputys or the public.
Oh, BTW, he has signed off twice for me on Title II weapons. He's very pro 2nd.
OK, I'll admit, it sound like I've drank the Lott Koolaid, but he has done a LOT (or LOTT
)to turn the county around. He about had to take over the Columbia PD due to lack of leadership in the City, but instead, he helped with the search for the new Chief of Police for Columbia. He was the driving force behind a Gang Task Force while CPD was constantly preaching that there was NO gang problem in Columbia, until it was too late and they were everywhere in your face.
Oh, and the APC, it was free (or almost, something like $1000) to the taxpayers. It was given to the Dept. by the military. As far as the .50, Lott said on a local talk radio show that it won't be mounted all the time, just on an "as needed basis" which he went on to admit will probably be never. But that it is all a PR tool for the dept. He would like to keep it if the need ever arises as in someone hiding behind heavy brick walls shooting at his Deputys or the public.
Oh, BTW, he has signed off twice for me on Title II weapons. He's very pro 2nd.
OK, I'll admit, it sound like I've drank the Lott Koolaid, but he has done a LOT (or LOTT
)to turn the county around. He about had to take over the Columbia PD due to lack of leadership in the City, but instead, he helped with the search for the new Chief of Police for Columbia. He was the driving force behind a Gang Task Force while CPD was constantly preaching that there was NO gang problem in Columbia, until it was too late and they were everywhere in your face.XDKingslayer
member
No I don't think it's over the top. Given S.C.'s terrain I think the entire vehicle can be a great tool for getting out to those rural pot fields and meth labs which are usually booby trapped out the wazoo.
As long as it's used properly I think it's great.
The only place I think it is overkill could be on the tax payer's wallet. Most tracked vehicles have a 1:8 hour maintenance ratio. That's 8 hours of maintenance to every 1 hour of use. Tracked vehicles eat themselves apart and their parts aren't cheap.
Rob62
Member
More info:
http://jalopnik.com/5044539/rambo-p...-invests-in-apc-armed-with-50+cal-machine-gun
Acutal Press Release
Sheriff Leon Lott unveiled the armored personnel carrier (APC), having the Richland County Sheriff’s Department Special Response Team (SRT) demonstrate the functions and abilities of the SRT and APC. Sheriff Lott was accompanied during the press conference today by the South Carolina National Guard who will assist the Sheriff’s Department with training, maintenance and general support for the operation of the APC. The APC was purchased under the “1033 program” which falls under the State Budget and Control Board, General Services Division. The program allows law enforcement agencies to receive military surplus – the Sheriff’s Department pays a fee per year of $2,000 from our general fund budget to acquire access to equipment, worth thousands of dollars on the open market. Sheriff Lott stated that during the Army’s use of the APC, the Federal Government paid over $300,000 for each M113A2 APC. Sheriff Lott stated that “1033 program” is a great resource for improving the effectiveness of the Sheriff’s Department while saving the citizens money (Mr. Ron Cathey runs the 1033 program for South Carolina and his number is (803) 896-7628).
The armored personnel carrier (APC) will provide additional assets to the Special Response Team (SRT) as they deal with a wide array of threats to our citizens. The Special Response Team involves two dedicated seven-person teams - SRT members are part time and have regular full-time duties. Sheriff Lott stated that the members of SRT have been trained to address barricaded suspects, hostage scenarios, high risk warrants, engage in active counter measures, crowd control, and hostile environmental situations. All SRT operators are required to be Hazardous Material Technicians to better serve the populous in the ever-changing threats to our country — all SRT members are a part of the Richland County COBRA (Chemical, Ordnance, Biological and Radiological) response team as we prepare to protect our citizens from the threat of explosives, chemical hazards or spills, or biological release. SRT utilizes different forms of weaponry (both less-than-lethal and lethal) in order to address any threats to our citizens.
Sheriff Leon Lott extended his appreciation to the citizens of Richland County and to the State Paper for their contributions in naming the APC (the State held an online search to garner public assistance on naming the APC). The purpose in obtaining this equipment is the protection of life and our protection of our communities – that the mere presence of the APC will prevent loss of life or injury to any and all citizens. Sheriff Lott stated that the name selected from the entries will be “The Peacemaker” because that is the APC’s purpose and the bible refers to law enforcement in Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. Sheriff Lott hopes to always bring resolution to all conflict through peaceful means.
http://jalopnik.com/5044539/rambo-p...-invests-in-apc-armed-with-50+cal-machine-gun
Acutal Press Release
Sheriff Leon Lott unveiled the armored personnel carrier (APC), having the Richland County Sheriff’s Department Special Response Team (SRT) demonstrate the functions and abilities of the SRT and APC. Sheriff Lott was accompanied during the press conference today by the South Carolina National Guard who will assist the Sheriff’s Department with training, maintenance and general support for the operation of the APC. The APC was purchased under the “1033 program” which falls under the State Budget and Control Board, General Services Division. The program allows law enforcement agencies to receive military surplus – the Sheriff’s Department pays a fee per year of $2,000 from our general fund budget to acquire access to equipment, worth thousands of dollars on the open market. Sheriff Lott stated that during the Army’s use of the APC, the Federal Government paid over $300,000 for each M113A2 APC. Sheriff Lott stated that “1033 program” is a great resource for improving the effectiveness of the Sheriff’s Department while saving the citizens money (Mr. Ron Cathey runs the 1033 program for South Carolina and his number is (803) 896-7628).
The armored personnel carrier (APC) will provide additional assets to the Special Response Team (SRT) as they deal with a wide array of threats to our citizens. The Special Response Team involves two dedicated seven-person teams - SRT members are part time and have regular full-time duties. Sheriff Lott stated that the members of SRT have been trained to address barricaded suspects, hostage scenarios, high risk warrants, engage in active counter measures, crowd control, and hostile environmental situations. All SRT operators are required to be Hazardous Material Technicians to better serve the populous in the ever-changing threats to our country — all SRT members are a part of the Richland County COBRA (Chemical, Ordnance, Biological and Radiological) response team as we prepare to protect our citizens from the threat of explosives, chemical hazards or spills, or biological release. SRT utilizes different forms of weaponry (both less-than-lethal and lethal) in order to address any threats to our citizens.
Sheriff Leon Lott extended his appreciation to the citizens of Richland County and to the State Paper for their contributions in naming the APC (the State held an online search to garner public assistance on naming the APC). The purpose in obtaining this equipment is the protection of life and our protection of our communities – that the mere presence of the APC will prevent loss of life or injury to any and all citizens. Sheriff Lott stated that the name selected from the entries will be “The Peacemaker” because that is the APC’s purpose and the bible refers to law enforcement in Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. Sheriff Lott hopes to always bring resolution to all conflict through peaceful means.
An actual press release citing the Bible. What a breath of fresh air, figuratively speaking. Not all is bad in the land, after all.
As to the APC and the weapon on it, standard law enforcement doctrine stresses the necessity for bringing at least one greater level of force to a given scenario than the bad guys, and the equipment in question allows for that. How the equipment is used, after the fact, is of more importance than what is stated or not in press releases, policy, or its mere existence on a given outfits property sheets.
As to the APC and the weapon on it, standard law enforcement doctrine stresses the necessity for bringing at least one greater level of force to a given scenario than the bad guys, and the equipment in question allows for that. How the equipment is used, after the fact, is of more importance than what is stated or not in press releases, policy, or its mere existence on a given outfits property sheets.
Neckshot5seven
member
- Joined
- May 26, 2008
- Messages
- 128
The whole point is SO THEY DO NOT HAVE TO USE DEADLY FORCE !!! That alone is worth having a APC with a M2. Hell for that matter Get a Bradley. If it keeps you from having to knock on your fellow officers door and explain to his wife and his 2 kids that daddy is not coming home because some crackhead or methlab douchebag shot him in a high risk warrent. Plus it will keep the target from doing something stupid that would get him-herself killed. It is worth it to me.
ny32182
Member
I think their next logical course of action is to get an A10 Warthog. What the hell is the use of an armored vehicle if you can't protect it from the air? Plus the 30mm cannon can punch through more walls than the .50.
siglite
Member
Thanks for the local perspective, ScottsGT.
wyocarp
Member
Recently talking with an officer at the side of my vehicle, he commented that I had more weapons on me than he had in his squad car. I confirmed that with him.
I guess that if I lived back east, I would need to "gun up" a little more to stay ahead of the local sheriff.
(I have been thinking about a Barrett .50. I'd hate to have to start carrying one with me all the time though.)
I guess that if I lived back east, I would need to "gun up" a little more to stay ahead of the local sheriff.
(I have been thinking about a Barrett .50. I'd hate to have to start carrying one with me all the time though.)
I can think of two occasions where something like this could have been used.
First was the stolen tank in California, although I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the .50 against a tanks treads.
Second, does anyone remember the schmuck who built his own tank out of a bulldozer, and upside down dumpster, and other scrap metal? He was going to use that against city hall because of some typical idiotic reason (i.e. didn't like his water bill.)
The .50 cal would have been nice for that.
And, hey, let's face it. That LA bank robbery would have been over a WHOLE lot quicker if this bad boy had showed up. Oh, gee, you've got TWO WHOLE LAYERS OF KEVLAR? Whatever shall I do?
deaconkharma
Member
Respectfully...
hiding behind heavy brick walls = CS gas / smoke, not overpenetrating in an area unable to be viewed with lethal force like that.
Backstop for a 50 cal is what?
I understand that I might be picking apart a certain scenario, but this as someone else has said, the very reason we have these checks in place such as calling nat. guard etc.
To me this gives the wrong image, Apc is one thing /M2 50 cal offensive in the city is another.
The "schmuck" with the D9 armored? disable the tracks or a few other scenarios come to mind. I don't recall them stopping him with the M2. This is not a war zone. Sorry police have to avoid collateral damage on the home court. Volleys of 50's downrange is only acceptable in places where collateral damage is acceptable. Precision shooting with a 50 would be acceptable from a precision rifle and a precise marksman.
hiding behind heavy brick walls = CS gas / smoke, not overpenetrating in an area unable to be viewed with lethal force like that.
Backstop for a 50 cal is what?
I understand that I might be picking apart a certain scenario, but this as someone else has said, the very reason we have these checks in place such as calling nat. guard etc.
To me this gives the wrong image, Apc is one thing /M2 50 cal offensive in the city is another.
The "schmuck" with the D9 armored? disable the tracks or a few other scenarios come to mind. I don't recall them stopping him with the M2. This is not a war zone. Sorry police have to avoid collateral damage on the home court. Volleys of 50's downrange is only acceptable in places where collateral damage is acceptable. Precision shooting with a 50 would be acceptable from a precision rifle and a precise marksman.
ny32182
Member
There were people in the bank behind the robbers in the LA robbery. Therefore, no .50cal machine gun, unless you want a bunch of dead bank customers and a taxpayer funded rebuilding of the front of the bank. A well placed 5.56 or .308 would have done the job just fine.
What is a .50 going to do against a stolen tank? My guess is nothing. BUT, like I said earlier, if they had an A10 they could take care of it.
What is a .50 going to do against a stolen tank? My guess is nothing. BUT, like I said earlier, if they had an A10 they could take care of it.
shadowalker
Member
A lot of these arguments sound like the arguments the states made against CCW, the streets will run with blood, people will shoot someone because of an argument, it wont stop crime. Just because they have it doesn't mean they'll use it.
Would you want law enforcement deciding you can't have an AR-15 or a M1A because they can't think of any reason you would need one? How about a high capacity shotgun, the EVIL armor piercing bonded or JHP bullets or magazines with more than 10 rounds?
To be fair the increasing amount of weapons police have available is partly because our society is becoming more armed and because we live in a different world. Yes our police are using more military type tactics but the scenarios they are now facing are much more like military problems as well.
We live in a world where active shooters, terrorists and the crazy want to inflict the most pain they can on our society, The Mexican military is supporting drug cartels and conducting operations on our side of the border. Our police force needs to be equipped to deal with these people.
I love having AR-10 and AR-15 rifles, high capacity 12 gauge shotguns, etc but other people also have them.
Beslan wasn't an isolated incident, they have great plans for our schools in America except on a much bigger scale. If that happens the bad guys will be as heavily armed as they can. It wont be military responding it will be law enforcement and they need to be equipped. I want our law enforcement to have the best tools and training available.
The bank robbery in California never should have happened, the police SHOULD have been equipped with the proper equipment to immediately stop the bad guys.
Would you want law enforcement deciding you can't have an AR-15 or a M1A because they can't think of any reason you would need one? How about a high capacity shotgun, the EVIL armor piercing bonded or JHP bullets or magazines with more than 10 rounds?
To be fair the increasing amount of weapons police have available is partly because our society is becoming more armed and because we live in a different world. Yes our police are using more military type tactics but the scenarios they are now facing are much more like military problems as well.
We live in a world where active shooters, terrorists and the crazy want to inflict the most pain they can on our society, The Mexican military is supporting drug cartels and conducting operations on our side of the border. Our police force needs to be equipped to deal with these people.
I love having AR-10 and AR-15 rifles, high capacity 12 gauge shotguns, etc but other people also have them.
Beslan wasn't an isolated incident, they have great plans for our schools in America except on a much bigger scale. If that happens the bad guys will be as heavily armed as they can. It wont be military responding it will be law enforcement and they need to be equipped. I want our law enforcement to have the best tools and training available.
The bank robbery in California never should have happened, the police SHOULD have been equipped with the proper equipment to immediately stop the bad guys.
deaconkharma
Member
To also be fair make them available to those able to buy/own guns...
problem solved
not make it harder and harder to buy them with high prices created by the bans of 34 and then the ATf tax stamps and rigamarole.
problem solved
not make it harder and harder to buy them with high prices created by the bans of 34 and then the ATf tax stamps and rigamarole.
shadowalker
Member
It is also funny people would prefer the Federal government have them and not local government. Local government is far more responsive to the people the Federal and more susceptible to oversight. That is the reason why our founding fathers intended a small Federal government.
Take the border for example, local law enforcement is trying to enforce the border when the Federal government wont. They are being confronted by heavily armed drug runners and the Mexican military.
Take the border for example, local law enforcement is trying to enforce the border when the Federal government wont. They are being confronted by heavily armed drug runners and the Mexican military.
deaconkharma
Member
Shadow
we aren't on the border. This is URBAN. Not on some wide open terrain
border? then yepppers sure you can have it.
we aren't on the border. This is URBAN. Not on some wide open terrain
border? then yepppers sure you can have it.
shadowalker
Member
Just as long as someone decides when they can have it . The exact same argument can be and is made made against gun ownership.
In this day and age the people could never overthrow the government and we aren't going to be invaded so you don't NEED an AR-15, AR-10, M1A, Garand, Mini 30, etc. You don't need a .50 BMG rifle, only the government should have them, you don't need more than 10 rounds to defend yourself with. These are all decisions someone has made about other people owning firearms.
Statistically you wont need a gun in a safe part of town, if you plan on going to or live in a bad part or are going hunting you can drop by the police department and pick up a firearm. Urban environments are very safe, especially places like Chicago, New Orleans, New York, DC. The police never encounter heavily armed people and violent people and certainly aren't targets of terrorists.
We know that is a ridiculous opinion, if we expect law enforcement to support our right to keep and bear arms we need to make sure we aren't applying a double standard. We also need to be sure that we properly support those that risk their lives every day to do what they can to keep society from tearing itself apart.
Could this be misused? Sure but that is what oversight is for, and the best oversight is locally held elections. The police chief answers to the mayor, the sheriff directly to the people and both want to get re-elected.
The vehicle itself makes excellent mobile cover and they can and have been used to recover injured citizens and police officers. Even unarmed I imagine it would be VERY effective in helping people decide to end a violent riot.
They say right off the bat that they will probably never use the gun but "It is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"
. The exact same argument can be and is made made against gun ownership. In this day and age the people could never overthrow the government and we aren't going to be invaded so you don't NEED an AR-15, AR-10, M1A, Garand, Mini 30, etc. You don't need a .50 BMG rifle, only the government should have them, you don't need more than 10 rounds to defend yourself with. These are all decisions someone has made about other people owning firearms.
Statistically you wont need a gun in a safe part of town, if you plan on going to or live in a bad part or are going hunting you can drop by the police department and pick up a firearm. Urban environments are very safe, especially places like Chicago, New Orleans, New York, DC. The police never encounter heavily armed people and violent people and certainly aren't targets of terrorists.
We know that is a ridiculous opinion, if we expect law enforcement to support our right to keep and bear arms we need to make sure we aren't applying a double standard. We also need to be sure that we properly support those that risk their lives every day to do what they can to keep society from tearing itself apart.
Could this be misused? Sure but that is what oversight is for, and the best oversight is locally held elections. The police chief answers to the mayor, the sheriff directly to the people and both want to get re-elected.
The vehicle itself makes excellent mobile cover and they can and have been used to recover injured citizens and police officers. Even unarmed I imagine it would be VERY effective in helping people decide to end a violent riot.
They say right off the bat that they will probably never use the gun but "It is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"
fletcher
Member
I wouldn't say that calling a PD's "need" into question creates a double standard. The PD is funded by taxpayers, and every expense should be justified and throughly scrutinized, so "why do they need that?" is a perfectly acceptable question to ask.
Individuals can spend their own money however they wish. Private money vs. public money and all.
Individuals can spend their own money however they wish. Private money vs. public money and all.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Sell the thing---use the funds for the Sheriff's jail time for misuse of public funds.
wyocarp
Member
plus 1
ny32182
Member
The PD isn't a civilian, and its toys are paid for by the populus. Absolutely there is a double standard, both in terms of "need" (from a cost perspective) and "Constitutionality" (in terms of having a standing army doing the policing duties).
I wouldn't have a problem with the border patrol being a military entity. Kind of like the coast guard, but on land, not water. As long as their mandate was clear, never violated, and with no jurisdiction away from the border. This is kind of a tricky area. I guess you'd need a "militarized zone" free of civilians for that to work. Complicated question.
In any event, Columbia, SC is not the border.
I wouldn't have a problem with the border patrol being a military entity. Kind of like the coast guard, but on land, not water. As long as their mandate was clear, never violated, and with no jurisdiction away from the border. This is kind of a tricky area. I guess you'd need a "militarized zone" free of civilians for that to work. Complicated question.
In any event, Columbia, SC is not the border.
- Status
