S&W 1911 or Kimber Custom II

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Matt King

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I am looking at getting a 1911 for home defense, as well as Concealed carry. I have narrowed it down to either a S&W 1911 or a Kimber Custom II. I have heard great things about both. However, I have some questions.

1. Can someone explain the different S&W 1911 models?

2. I have head that the Kimber's have trouble with McCormick mags. Could you elaborate?

3. In terms of CCW'ing which would be easier?

4. Which 1911 holster would you recommend for concealed carry? (I am partial to IWB.)

5. Which one fits my need better?

Thank you.
 
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1. Not me; ask your dealer or S&W.
2. Aluminum framed pistols and extra cartridge magazines such as McCormick sells don't mix well. This is as true of S&W as it is of Kimber or any other maker. Chip McCormick and Charley Kelsey and others developed a follower that allows an extra cartridge but which also can scratch or mark an aluminum frame - for reasons do a search -. Kimber pistols with aluminum frames like all pistols with aluminum frames are susceptible to this which might be considered damage. For CCW and for defense generally a traditional capacity magazine with a traditional dimpled follower and traditional or hybrid lips gives best results in most 1911 pistols (obviously high capacity and game guns aside - myself I use Wilson 47D for games and Colt or Checkmate 7 round hybrid lips for fighting).
3. No logical differences.
4. I'd suggest an Alessi PCH but a Sparks from Lightning Sports or a holster from one of the many fine makers with a shorter wait list might be the choice for someone else.
5. Myself I have doubts that the external extractor on the S&W 1911 is as well engineered as on their other pistols with more original engineering. Some say the current S&W design is a tad high on the slide and so the cartridge case is not fully and properly controlled. My own carry gun is a Kimber II modified to remove the firing pin safety but I cannot suggest removing any safety features.
 
Clark:

Thanks for your responses.
Using an Alessi PCH, how difficult is it to conceal a full-size 1911?
 
Neither.
I have seen far more defective unreliable S&W 1911s than I have seen reliable functioning ones.
I have seen two out of time firing pin safeties and had one.
I have seen one that was doubling and tripling and owned one that did it. Mine took three trips back for them to fix.
I have had one that was breaking barrel link pins. That needed a trip back.
Every single one I have ever owned (4) would not extract reliably on the last round. It would jam the head of the empty case into the feed lips of the magazine. All the people I shoot with have the exact same issue with theirs. The only people who have had success fixing it are those who removed the extractor and relieved it so it can pivot in a little farther. I have sent 2 guns in for this issue. One went back three times and the other went back twice and S&W has yet to resolve it either of them.
I have never seen a S&W 1911 with feeding issues.

I don't think any more highly of Kimber's assembly or of their firing pin safety design. The only positive is that they don't use the difficult to tweak external extractor.

If I could buy any 1911 it would be a Colt Special Combat Government. I cannot buy just any 1911 because I live in Mass.
 
5230 fast rounds on my S&W 1911PD Gunsite with only the front gold bead taking a hike. S&W pays frieght both ways on warranty-forever!
 
Concur with Clark's advice; my Kimber Custom TLE II functions well with about any of the better 7-round mags, but if I go to 8 or 10 rounders, it's gotta be the Wilson Combat 47 series.

I've found that for me, the best IWB (in terms of comfort and excellent concealment) for a full-size 1911 is the Milt Sparks VM-II, bar none (haven't used an Alessi, tho').

If you're looking at the Custom II, another 100 bucks puts you in the Custom TLE II, which comes with Meprolights and nice frontstrap checkering. In any case, my personal preference would be for a Kimber over a S&W 1911 ...
 
This is odd. After reading This TFL thread, I was under the impression that Kimber's quality had gone down the tubes.
 
I am still questioning Kimber. Buddy just purchased a Custom Shop 22 1911 from them that Jams constantly. He had a standard version of this 22 that did the same thing that he wanted to sell to me for 425 and even to that low price I said no thank you. I am in love with my S&W 1911 I own not one problem with any ammo.
 
1. Can someone explain the different S&W 1911 models?
Click to expand...
The three I own are listed here, with links to a range report on each one. Except for the DK model, they are basically the same pistol with different sights, finishes and trimmings. Go here and here for specifics.

3. In terms of CCW'ing which would be easier?
Click to expand...
My opinion, the SW1911PD, due to the weight reduction.

4. Which 1911 holster would you recommend for concealed carry? (I am partial to IWB.)
Click to expand...
A well made leather one attached to a real gun belt.

5. Which one should I buy?
Click to expand...
The one you like. For the use you describe, I prefer fixed sights, a Government or Commander model, rubber grips, and no fancy stuff. As I stated, my preference is the SW1911PD due to weight reduction.
 
I carried on and off in plain clothes duty a .45 Commander since 1975 (CCW as of late!) in a Bruce Nelson (NOT Sparks made) holster and later a Sparks Summer Special IWB holster on a Sparks differential cut belt. I still believe these are the best Leather concealment holsters ever made.
That said for the last 5 years I have come into the 21st century and carry in a Kydex holster (currently the SW1911PD Gunsite in a Comp-Tac) on a Liger Belt. I have to admit, they are head and shoulders better than the heavier and bulkier leather, and they don't absorb dirt or liquids ect and need no care. I am NOT selling the old Sparks stuff , however;)


http://www.comp-tac.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=44


http://www.botac.com/ligerbelts.html
 
Thanks for all the advice.

In terms of comfort and difficulty concealing, how does a 5' 1911 compare with a 4' Commander?
 
Not all Kimbers are bad, and in fact, not even most. What is bad about kimber is that of the (hypothetically) 5% defective, half of those people receive less than respectful treatment by Dennis. Dennis is a man of let's say colorful character, with an uncanny ability to urinate people off with his non-sense excuses for Kimber's failures to maintain high quality control standards. Every time I hear someone like Dennis assert "...limp-wrist..." I just want to vomit. So, only in part might Kimber product be to blame, the remainder falls squarely and justly to Dennis in the "Custom" shop. I have had 15 Kimbers, 10 were awesome! Five were defective, and Dennis' treatment toward me was so bad that the Sen. Ex VP of Customer Relations had to get involved. I will not buy a Kimber for so long as Dennis is employed. It is a matter of principle.

I have no experience with S&W and so will say nothing of them. I do have several Colts, and my experiences with Colt are all positive. But, keep in mind, ALL companies produce some bad products. In the end, it is the customer service that matters.

Doc2005
 
This is odd. After reading
Click to expand...

Matt, take most you read on the message boards, posted by nameless folks, with a grain of salt.

About 4 years ago my shooting buddy and I were trying to make a similar choice. He went with the Kimber and I bought the SW1911. We are both still happy with the guns we bought. Hard to make a bad choice between the two.

Good Luck...

Joe
 
I can't say anything good or bad about a S&W since I do not own one.
But I can say that I have been most happy with my Kimber stainless II.
FWIW the S&Ws that I have seen in the stores are quite a bit more than the Kimber I got but I have not really compared feature to feature either.
Good luck.
 
Joe:

Great points...a grain of salt...and that goes for Kimber advocates. All is well until something goes bad. Then you meet Dennis. Check this link and react to the 14 pictures of my previous "custom" shop "unPro" Raptor. They are in post #27 of the following thread:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=275388&highlight=Kimber

If a picture is worth a thousand words, the 14 pictures posted are a short story's worth of Kimberology. Answer me this:

1) Would you be proud to own that pistol?

2) Would you be satisfied that Dennis returned it to you with the written quote, "No defects. All parts within specs"?

That's Kimber; that's Dennis. Just my humble grain of salt.

Doc2005...nameless yes, but with pics to back my position. By the way, you don't need my name...you have the pistol serial number. If you think me to be a liar, call Dennis...he can look-up my name! He knows that I am the previous owner. Then, let's have Dennis come here and post!
 
I will say that, while S&W will not necessarily give you a working gun, they will take it back and pay shipping both ways no questions asked as many times as it takes. It may take a few trips for their 1911s. They seem to know their other guns backwards and forwards but not the 1911s.
 
wow, this is pretty much the first thread I have seen with anyone saying anything bad about the Smith's. I own two, have never had a problem with either, they are very accurate and work with any ammo. As far as I have been aware frequenting such forums as the 1911forum, they are considered one of the most reliable/best of current production model brands. In all honesty, I have heard fairly terrible things about Kimber's for the past 6 or 8 years or so--from the time they went with the external extractors especially. I have not heard of any problems with the Smith external extractors, in fact I was under the impression they are generally viewed as MORE reliable than internal extractor models. I'd say go to a 1911 forum and look around.

In GENERAL, I would personally say you will likely be fine with any name brand 1911. I have had Smith's, Springer's and a Colt and haven't had a bad one yet.
 
It's an assembly problem not a design or parts quality issue. There are thousands of S&W 1911s out there that are going to run perfectly indefinitely because the extractor was fit correctly. The first production run was done by the performance center and that is what S&W built their reputation on. I talked with Jeff Whitehouse (works in the performance center) about the issue at a local match and he said he would look into it. That is the difference between S&W and Dennis I suppose.
 
Amen to that closing sentence. Dennis would not look for anything problematic; all Dennis knows is blame the customerlkwekgd.hjelj

Oooops...sorry folks...must have "limp-wristed" the keyboard. :evil:
 
I have both a Kimber and a Smith.
My Kimber is a Tac Pro 9mm
My Smith is a Full Sized Blued model.
I did own a Kimber Compact and HATED it. It was the worst 1911 I ever owned.
The only reason I bought the Tac PRo was the caliber. That said. It runs like a CHAMP. I have put a couple of thousands rounds through it with only one type of malfunction.
An old Pachmyr mag wont lock the slide back on the last round.
Great gun.
The Smith is reliable accurate and very well made.
Both companies can and do turn out exceptional products most of the time.
The lemons will always get the most attention. Kimber deals poorly with its lemons.
Smith is great for service and so is Springfield. Don't forget Springers.
 
I'd shop around for a pre series II Kimber or buy a new Kimber model without the series II safeties...like the "warrior" models....but I'd prefer a pre series II model - they seem to have had the best reputations, all of mine have been great so far. As far as customer service goes, well I can't complain about Dennis, I read that Kimber had upgraded to the forged barrel bushings at some point after my pre series II pistols were built, I emailed and he sent me out new bushings...also, I emailed a question I had about the recoil spring assembly in my Ultra Eclipse model (my only series II) and a knowledgable woman called to discuss it with me!...she said she carried the same model herself. I did have some issues with that pistol but thanks to 1911Tuner's previous instructions and tutoring, I was able to identify the problems and straighten'em out myself - thanks again Cuz!

Unfortunately, it seems to be a crapshoot these days on 1911's...I love'em but if I had to pick a one and only pistol today, it'd be a Glock 17...if it just had to have an attachment to JMB, it'd probably be a Browning Hi Power...if money isn't a big issue, then you can get whatever 1911 you want and if it doesn't work right, send it to someone that has a reputation for reliability jobs and you'll be good to go....in hindsight, Kimber says they are using "tighter" firing pin stops these days...always a good thing....heavy sigh..just can't get away from a nice 1911 :cool:

Ken
 
Yep Doc, thats a nice one...I recently got one just like it except it don't have Clackamas wrote on it....got a new bushing on it's way for that one too!

Sorry for the troubles you had with yours Doc....

My (ex) Sheriff had a Colt that we all pitched in and bought for him that got a crack in the plastic mainspring housing...I called Colt and was told I had to send the part in for them to inspect before they would mail out another! You'd think that they'd be a little more cooperative with LE - especially over a cheap part. He carried a Glock 21 til they received the cracked one and mailed me another plastic msh for it....sigh...told him I could get a metal one for it but he said that one was fine....oh well, it's still running....

Ken
 
Ken:

Are you an LEO? When you said ex-sheriff, that is what I understood.

Anyhow, I have a Wilson Combat main spring housing if you want it for his Colt. It is aluminum, flat and checkered nicely. When I bought it they told me it was steel...I did not have a magnet with me. Oh well, right???

Let me know if you want it. Especially if he carries that pistol, he really needs to switch out the plastic!!! I will give it to you for just the cost of shipping because it is for your sheriff's gift CCW pistol. I paid about $30.00 for it, but I do not and have not used it, nor will I ever use it. Truth be known, would feel better about giving it away for that switch-out than selling it.

Please advise,

Doc2005
 
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