S&W #3 clones, real shooters experinces??

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Float Pilot

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Does anyone here have much experience with the S&W #3 clones, like the Schofield and Russian models ? I was wondering why I never see any for sale when I drive up to the big city. If anyone does have experience with them, is there anything I should know before pursuing one model or make over another?

I like the idea of a 44 Russian since I could cut 44 special brass, but it seems that the only model now being produced in that chambering is the Russian model. I like the grip on thiose , bt holstering might be a bit weird with the trigger guard spur.

Any thoughts...?
 
Howdy

I don't have much experience with the Uberti replicas, but I do have experience shooting the real thing.

This Second Model Russian was made in 1875. I had this Slim Jim holster made for it by El Paso Saddlery.


russianandholster_zps15b0faaf.jpg



As you can see, the gun fits into the holster with the trigger guard spur remaining outside of he holster, it does not cause a problem.

russianinholster_zpsed2d478e.jpg



The first thing you should know is you do not have to cut down 44 Special brass to make 44 Russian brass, you can buy new 44 Russian brass from Starline, which is what I do. I have several old revolvers chambered for the round.

I just checked and even though it is not historically accurate, Uberti does chamber their Schofield models for the 44 Russian cartridge.

http://www.uberti.com/top-break-revolver



Now, about that grip. The First Model Russian did not look like this, it looked exactly like the S&W American Model, except it was chambered for the 44 Russian round. But the Russians wanted some changes made to the design, and the big, sharp point on the grip (in S&W speak it is called a knuckle), and the spur on the trigger guard were two changes they wanted.

The big knuckle on the grip was there to prevent the gun from rotating in the hand during recoil, and it does a very good job of it. However, I find the reach to the hammer spur with any #3 Top Break to be a bit further than the reach to the hammer of a Colt, and particularly with the Russian Model I have to regrip to get my thumb to reach far enough to reach the hammer spur. This leaves the knuckle in contact with the palm of my hand. Then I have to regrip again to get my hand under the knuckle again. If I don't get my hand back under the knuckle, and I fire the gun, that sharp point digs into my palm and it hurts. Even with a mildly recoiling round like 44 Russian.



The Schofield Model, on the other hand, has a curved grip and rolls in the hand in recoil. I find it easier to shoot the Schofield, cocking the hammer while the gun is 'up' and then I let it roll down into my hand again to fire another shot.

This First Model Schofield was also made in 1875, and it is of course chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge. I buy my 45 Schofield brass from Starline too.

schofield02_zps140a93d1.jpg



My Schofield fits nicely into the same Slim Jim holster.

schofieldinholster_zps32397bcd.jpg



There is one more #3 Top Break you might want to look for. Beretta sells it and they call it the Laramie. The Beretta Laramie is a pretty faithful reproduction of the Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three.

The New Model Number Three was the high point of #3 design. It is a more refined design than either the Russian or the Schofield models. Target versions were available and records were set with the New Model Number Three that still stand today.

The small knuckle on the grip of the New Model #3 helps keep it from rotating in recoil, but it is easy for me to get my hand back under it again for repeat shots. This particular one was made in 1882, but it was refinished at the factory in 1965, that is why it looks so good. This one is chambered for 44 Russian, which was the most common chambering of this model.

My New Model #3 is a standard model with fixed sights. The Beretta Laramie comes with a windage adjustable rear sight.

new%20model%20number%20three%2001_zpsnhtam3mu.jpg



The New Model Number Three also fits nicely in the El Paso Slim Jim holster.

NewModel3inHolster.jpg


A couple more things. A number or years ago ASM made a Schofield replica revolver. Avoid them, they were nothing but trouble. The Uberti made Russians and Schofields are quality guns. I do not know this for a fact, but since Beretta owns Uberti, I suspect Uberti also makes the Laramie.

One other thing. Because of changes to the design of the cylinder bushing, none of the modern Uberti #3 replicas shoots Black Powder very well. They tend to bind up because the bushing has been shrunk down in order to squeeze a longer 45 Colt or 44-40 cylinder into a frame the same size as the originals.

The originals shoot Black Powder very well, that is all I shoot in mine.
 
The Russian clone in .38 spl is probably my next purchase. I think they have a bit more character than a Schofield. The only thing that holds me back is about $875 give or take $100. Mostly give another $100 or two.
I would personally go for the nickel version.
They can be found and once in awhile one will list lower than the rest. It's hard for me to part with that kind of money for something that will most likely sit in the safe. Still, I'd like to have one anyway.
Here's a convenient link for auctions.
 
Try to get a look at one before you buy.
Like the SAA, a No 3 in a smaller caliber than its native .44 is pretty heavy.
I had a real S&W No 3 New Model .38-44 and it was not as handy and lively feeling as a .44 Russian.
 
Faster to reload than what?

Of course it is faster to reload than a Colt. With a Colt (or a Ruger) you have to set the hammer on half cock, open the loading gate, and pop each empty out one at a time with the ejector rod. Then you load five (or six if you dare) one at a time. Then you close the loading gate.

With a Top Break you set the hammer on half cock to clear the latch, raise the latch, push the barrel all the way down and the empties should all fall out. It helps to tilt the gun a bit sideways to get all the empties to fall out. Then with the gun still open you load five (or six but I don't advise it), then you swing the barrel shut and you are ready to go.

I have stopped the stroke about halfway in this photo, with the extractor part of the way up.

unloading-1.jpg



A Top Break is really only marginally faster to reload than a typical modern revolver with a side swinging cylinder. With practice, one can pop the cylinder open and dump the empties out pretty fast with a modern revolver.


I too would caution about buying a big #3 revolver chambered for 38 Special. While the ammo is cheaper and more easily available than the other cartridges these guns are chambered for, the smaller holes will mean the gun is heavier. Best to try to handle different calibers if you can find them.
 
Oops, sorry.

To tell you the truth, I am more used to operating the standard latch than the Schofield latch. So for me, the standard latch is just as quick. I suppose if I was shooting the Schofield a lot I would find it easier to open.

As you are probably aware, the Schofield was designed to be operated with one hand. It takes two hands to operate the standard latch. I grasp my Russian or New Model #3 with two hands, and I push the latch up with my right thumb while pulling the barrel down with my left hand. I do the same with the Schofield, except I pull the latch back with my right thumb while pulling the barrel down with the other hand.

Major Schofield was actually very accomplished at loading the Schofield with one hand while riding a horse, opening the latch with his thumb and brushing the barrel against his leg to open the gun, without dropping the reins of his horse in his other hand. That much is true. I have no idea how he reloaded without dropping the reins.
 
He probably shoved the barrel into his belt and let the grip section sag down. That would give him an open cylinder top to load with his free hand, two at a time from loops.

I do not think that Beretta still makes the Stampede. I did not see it listed last time I looked.
 
The ASMs were, as noted, problematical. Most commonly in the latch area.

The Beretta/Uberti is long gone.

In working with several Ubertis over the years I initially thought the Russian would be fun, found it was a bit awkward to shoot with a long reach to cock it.

The short-lived real S&W reverse-engineered repro was well made & the best of the bunch.

Issues that cropped up with the Ubertis were sight alignment, sticking cylinders during ejection, and a premature hinge loosening.

Those comments, aside from the sights, reflect a conglomeration of experiences.
Not all guns had all issues.

The .38 was probably the most accurate.
The Russian has the most character.
The short-barreled "snub" versions are the "coolest", to me.

The Schofield latch is the quickest for a reload, its one-handed latch design is faster & more convenient.
Denis
 
Probably got 500 rounds through a Taylors S&W #3 New Frontier/45 Colt
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/new-...nishes-checkered-walnut-grips-model-8651.html

Make SURE to get the model w/ a sliding/windage-adjustable rear sight blade **

Downside
- Had to get a trigger job to get it down from 8(+)lbs to 3
- Had to raise the front sight by 1/10" inch (SEE http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6246345&postcount=4)

Upside
- Slick action -- very smooth
- Very accurate
- Shoots standard/cowboy 45Colt and the shorter 45 Schofield equally well... surprisingly little difference
- 45 Colt cases will cleanly drop out from ejector action, while the 45 Schofield will completely clear/pop from the cylinder on ejection.


** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2pphlcn.jpg
(sorry about the detritus... but this is a working gun) ;)
 
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I HATE detritus.

Detritus will be the fall of our entire civilization.
Denis
 
The Beretta/Uberti is long gone.

?????

As far as I know, Beretta still owns Uberti.


****************************


http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/cartridge-revolvers/schofield-revolvers/new-model-no-3-frontier.html


This is the same gun that was originally marketed as the Beretta Laramie. It is a reasonably close replica of the S&W New Model Number Three.

The word Frontier is a bit misleading, because the original New Model Number Three Frontier was only chambered for 44-40, just as the original New Model Number Three 38 Winchester was only chambered for 38-40. S&W gave these variations specific model names. But the one Taylors is selling today as the Frontier model appears to only be available in 45 Colt, with two different barrel lengths.


Make SURE to get the model w/ a sliding/windage-adjustable rear sight blade **

As far as I know, the Laramie/Taylors Frontier model is only available with an adjustable rear sight, it is not available with a fixed rear sight.




This is the non-adjustable rear sight on my New Model Number Three. The two ears at the front of the latch are the rear sight.

latch_zps8ff55f08.jpg




This is the adjustable rear sight on my 44 Double Action Target Model. This is a typical adjustable rear sight for a #3 Smith. It is only adjustable for windage, not elevation. The blade is positioned so that one does not see the two ears on the latch when sighting the gun.

nickel44DArearsight_zps57bff1f0.jpg

- Had to raise the front sight by 1/10" inch (SEE http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...45&postcount=4)

All the originals shot high. They all had 'low' front sights. My original New Model Number Three shoots high. I compensate by aiming near the bottom of the target.
 
The BERETTA/UBERTI LARAMIE is long gone.
Not Beretta or Uberti. :)

Beretta dipped into the CAS market very briefly, with that pistol & a Lightning rifle version.
Neither was made by Beretta, just Beretta-branded.

Market response answered their questions & they opted out of that market segment.

Denis
 
The ASMs were, as noted, problematical. Most commonly in the latch area.

A friend and I ordered ASM Schofields based on a favorable review by an Australian shooter. Of the two that came in, one did not survive a few cycles in the store. It went back and replaced with one that would shoot. Both shot way left. The barrels would not pass a range rod... crooked.
We sent them back. After a while we were told they were going back to Italy. After a few months, we applied for and got refunds in the wholesale amount. Since a friendly local dealer had not charged much markup, we were not out a whole lot of money. I plowed mine back into an ASM SAA which has been ok. My friend bought a Colt.
I have read that the Schofield Debacle was one of the things that killed off ASM and nearly put EMF out of business.
 
Not quite.

It was Cimarron that brought in the ASM Schofields.
They'd worked out an agreement with ASM to buy the equipment so ASM could produce those versions exclusively for Cimarron.

There were several QC issues, the main was the latch. (The ASM Schofield I had had to be "re-organized" internally to get a spring out of the way.)

Cimarron brought it up with ASM, they agreed on a re-designed latch.
Next shipment Cimarron got in had the "old" latch.
Phone call to ASM. "Thought we had agreed on a new latch."
"We did, and we will be very happy to put them on new guns as soon as we use up all of the old latches."

Much unhappiness under the Cimarron roof.
Project not long after abandoned.

Most of the repro importers can give you similar horror stories about dealing with the Italians at various times.
They do business a little differently.

And what killed off ASM was more AWA than Cimarron. :)
Denis
 
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