S & W .30 carry ,your opinions

[babaylan]

the ONLY thing that really matters is PLACEMENT

Not really to relitigate an argument that many people feel is debatable or even questionable, but what I was saying is really just my personal opinion, and opinions can reasonably vary on this subject.

Yes, I agree that shot placement is a critical factor—after all, a miss doesn't affect the target, at all—but *all other things being equal*, every study of historical shooting data I have seen suggests that .380 ACP and .38 Special (non +P) have marginal effectiveness, that .38 Special +P and 9 mm Parabellum (non +P) are merely sufficent, with anything stronger—9 mm +P, .40 S&W, .44 Special, .45 ACP, and .357 Mag—being that much more effective.

However, shot placement is NOT "the only thing that really matters" in a self-defensive scenario. Other factors *do* matter, and some of the reasons why I favor larger, slower projectiles is what happens when you miss and what happens when you fire indoors in the dark. Again, *all other things being equal*, a slower bullet is going to produce less muzzle blast, less recoil, less flash, and less report, and be less likely to overpenetrate through building walls. *All other things being equal*, a larger, heavier bullet will transfer proportionately more momentum on impact than a smaller, lighter bullet, because of its greater mass and the fact that it is going to interact with more material when it strikes, leading to less propensity for overpenentration.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone. I'm just giving my interpretation of the data I've read and how Physics works. In my opinion, for .30 SC to be reliably effective, it necessarily needs to be a supersonic load, and that is contrary to my preferences because of the reasons I outline here.

 

[scaatylobo]

Not really to relitigate an argument that many people feel is debatable or even questionable, but what I was saying is really just my personal opinion, and opinions can reasonably vary on this subject.

Yes, I agree that shot placement is a critical factor—after all, a miss doesn't affect the target, at all—but *all other things being equal*, every study of historical shooting data I have seen suggests that .380 ACP and .38 Special (non +P) have marginal effectiveness, that .38 Special +P and 9 mm Parabellum (non +P) are merely sufficent, with anything stronger—9 mm +P, .40 S&W, .44 Special, .45 ACP, and .357 Mag—being that much more effective.

However, shot placement is NOT "the only thing that really matters" in a self-defensive scenario. Other factors *do* matter, and some of the reasons why I favor larger, slower projectiles is what happens when you miss and what happens when you fire indoors in the dark. Again, *all other things being equal*, a slower bullet is going to produce less muzzle blast, less recoil, less flash, and less report, and be less likely to overpenetrate through building walls. *All other things being equal*, a larger, heavier bullet will transfer proportionately more momentum on impact than a smaller, lighter bullet, because of its greater mass and the fact that it is going to interact with more material when it strikes, leading to less propensity for overpenentration.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone. I'm just giving my interpretation of the data I've read and how Physics works. In my opinion, for .30 SC to be reliably effective, it necessarily needs to be a supersonic load, and that is contrary to my preferences because of the reasons I outline here.

I will agree ONLY if that "larger" caliber is a 12 bore with slug or buckshot.

Otherwise all the actual shooting I have read about and seen are placement.

One of my fellow officers needed to shoot an EDP up close with a duty gun.

9MM did the job with 2 to the heart & one hit the shoulder , he was shot at the ER with a DR on scene .

They called him DRT [ dead right there].

I see you point ONLY when it comes to thick skinned critters or charging from same.

Then I want at least a 10MM in handgun,but prefer a rifle or shotgun.

 

[Kleanbore]

....*all other things being equal*, every study of historical shooting data I have seen suggests that .380 ACP and .38 Special (non +P) have marginal effectiveness, that .38 Special +P and 9 mm Parabellum (non +P) are merely sufficent, with anything stronger—9 mm +P, .40 S&W, .44 Special, .45 ACP, and .357 Mag—being that much more effective.

If you are referring to the shooting of human subjects, there are volumes of reports that lead us to believe that .38 Special and 9 mm rounds are effective.

I'm not sure what is meant by "all other things being equal", but if that means that the same number of bullets strike the target in the same places, we will not find all other things being equal. With a gun of the same mass properties and geometry, a round with a larger bullet will have heavier recoil, and that will result in a greater time interval between shots and therefore, fewer hits on a movie target.

*All other things being equal*, a larger, heavier bullet will transfer proportionately more momentum on impact than a smaller, lighter bullet, because of its greater mass and the fact that it is going to interact with more material when it strikes, leading to less propensity for overpenentration.

You missed me.

 

[Boom Vang]

I like the cartridge, but I'm afraid it's already dying. I give S&W another 2 years before dropping it altogether. Wish another manufacturer had chambered it, but I don't see that happening. S&W and Darth Vista should have waited to introduce it until the ammo shortage ended, and also introduced ammo at much lower prices to establish a market for it. They thought they could use shill marketing to line their pockets and it blew up in their faces. Too bad, it's a good cartridge.

 

[Nuclear]

Since recoil is a function of momentum (mass x velocity) I don’t see how the 30 Super recoils significantly less than a 9mm of similar velocity and weight.

 

[BlackHand1917]

I have no immediate interest in the cartridge. However, if a company offers a fantastic deal on a pistol in .30SC, I might take the bait. For instance, if Taurus offers a very high capacity compact in the caliber for under 300 bucks.

 

[Jim Watson]

Since recoil is a function of momentum (mass x velocity) I don’t see how the 30 Super recoils significantly less than a 9mm of similar velocity and weight.

Right, a 100 grain bullet at 1250 fps will generate less recoil than a 124 gr bullet at 1250 fps.

 

[EMC45]

I have seen plenty of .30 Carry ammo locally for sale. The round intrigues me. I have always been a fan of the 1935A SACM French Longue pistol and cartridge, so this is just a continuation of my nerdiness.

 

[Rodfac]

I think it's the next .41AE, .357 SIG, or .45 GAP.
Not enough of an advantage over existing cartridges to justify it's long-term survival.

Yep, same thoughts here....IMHO, long term ammunition availability & proven designs/parts access trump slight improvements in recoil, etc.
Best regards, Rod

 

[Nuclear]

Right, a 100 grain bullet at 1250 fps will generate less recoil than a 124 gr bullet at 1250 fps.

A 100 grain bullet at 1250 fps has almost the identical momentum (recoil) as a 115 grain bullet at 1150 fps (<6% difference).

 

[Jim Watson]

We both picked loads to make our point.
A 9mm 115/1150 is what my usual 9BP will do but lots of people are not happy without +P or NATO.
On the other hand, what is the actual velocity of a .30 from a real pocket pistol?

 

[Miami_JBT]

The cartridge is great on paper but a dud on the market. Introduced during the Pandemic Ammo Scare and chambered in guns that don't really let the cartridge shine. It will die a sad death. At least .45 GAP (a cartridge I actually enjoy) served with a number of law enforcement agencies on the state and local levels. Heck, I carried a GLOCK 37 as a cop for a period of time. .30 Super Carry won't even get that on its tombstone.

The cartridge is dead, it just doesn't know it. In reality, it was stillborn.

 

[MIKR410]

I have no immediate interest in the cartridge. However, if a company offers a fantastic deal on a pistol in .30SC, I might take the bait. For instance, if Taurus offers a very high capacity compact in the caliber for under 300 bucks.

Well grab a gun has been running this deal on the S&W shield plus in 30 super carry for a while.

https://grabagun.com/smith-and-wess...per-carry-3-1-barrel-13-16-round-mags-ts.html

A buddy of mine and his wife got a pair of them this way and they both been very pleased with the caliber and platform. I found out about all this when he started talking to me about reloading for it, and I asked for more info.

 

[BlackHand1917]

I have seen plenty of .30 Carry ammo locally for sale. The round intrigues me. I have always been a fan of the 1935A SACM French Longue pistol and cartridge, so this is just a continuation of my nerdiness.

I understand. The 1935A is a very handsome looking gun. There are hundreds of guys out there with one who go to extreme lengths to get ammo for them, including that "Forgotten Weapons" fellow.

 

[The Happy Kaboomer]

None here.........Useless cartridge.........Want a fast one....Get a .30 Torkarev

 

[scaatylobo]

Well = if any of y'all are still following my OP here.

I just ordered the pistol and now will be looking for a decent supply of ammo for her.

I will ck back and if this is still a live post , I will give some feed back on her.

 

[Kleanbore]

Looking forward to it.

 

[The Happy Kaboomer]

Predict the cartridge will dead and forgotten in less than 10 years.

 

[wayneinFL]

Well = if any of y'all are still following my OP here.

I just ordered the pistol and now will be looking for a decent supply of ammo for her.

I will ck back and if this is still a live post , I will give some feed back on her.

I have no use for it.

That said, for some reason I have ordered a S&W of some kind in 30SC. Don't even remember what. It's at the dealer waiting to be picked up Saturday. If the local indoor range has ammunition for it I will shoot it Saturday.

Heh. Just called and they don't. Neither does BassPro or Academy.

 

[Kleanbore]

None here.........Useless cartridge.........Want a fast one....Get a .30 Torkarev

OAL too long, excessive sound pressure, velocity exceeds what is necessary for SD, not chambered in anything that one would want for CCW.

 

[Jim Watson]

None here.........Useless cartridge.........Want a fast one....Get a .30 Torkarev

People keep SAYING that. A fricking Tokarev does not fit my pocket.

Just called and they don't.

Not going to arm you up by tomorrow but Target Sports has nine different loads. My local has some, too.

30 SUPER CARRY AMMO - Ammo Deals

30 SUPER CARRY AMMO

www.targetsportsusa.com

 

[wayneinFL]

People keep SAYING that. A fricking Tokarev does not fit my pocket.

Not going to arm you up by tomorrow but Target Sports has nine different loads. My local has some, too.

30 SUPER CARRY AMMO - Ammo Deals

30 SUPER CARRY AMMO

www.targetsportsusa.com

Thanks. I have some on order earlier in the week from another online vendor. It hasn't shipped.

I was hoping to just grab a couple of boxes and shoot the gun after I picked it up. I knew the 30SC wasn't popular, but I didn't think the local availability would be that bad.

 

[wayneinFL]

Mine is a Shield Plus. The only thing I found in FMJ in town was 115gr. The 115 felt a lot like 9mm. I think the 90 grain I ordered will be different.

Here's a 5 shot group with the 115gr. I'm hitting a little left. Might be me- it was offhand, no rest. But it was consistent for 50 rounds. And it's a decent Glock style trigger- I don't think I'm pushing it left.

My next trip to the range, I'll bring my sight pusher and get it centered. Or I might send it back to S&W first- the front night sight doesn't light up. I'm thinking about whether I really care about that or not. (edited to add- contacted S&W around midnight and at 8:17 this morning they ordered me a new sight.)

This is a neat little gun. It's about the same size as my Glock 43. Grip is very close to the same size, but it came with a 13 round and a 16 round mag.

 

[scaatylobo]

UPDATE.
The gun should arrive about the same time the 1K target rounds and the 120 'social' rounds get here.
Hope to have it all together by end of the month.

 

[scaatylobo]

I have no use for it.

That said, for some reason I have ordered a S&W of some kind in 30SC. Don't even remember what. It's at the dealer waiting to be picked up Saturday. If the local indoor range has ammunition for it I will shoot it Saturday.

Heh. Just called and they don't. Neither does BassPro or Academy.

My ammo arrived yesterday, now I am awaiting the S&W.