S&W 41: why blued carbon steel?

[KJS]

Looking at an S&W catalog last week this question just popped into my mind. It just struck me as odd that S&W's best .22 pistol has a blued carbon steel frame & slide.

I was under the impression that stainless was deemed superior, because it's, well, stainless (to a certain extent). Yes, I've seen rust on stainless guns so I know it's possible with a serious lack of care and I know the steel used in guns can't be as stainless as forks & spoons that never rust as that level of rust resitance is impossible without making steel too soft for use in firearms.

It seems like the 41 is the only current production S&W gun to use blued carbon steel, other than their most basic model 10 where it's an issue of keeping down cost, or with their "Classics" collection to maintain more historical accuracy. After all, their "Classics" can't be made of stainless when stainless wasn't in use in guns till 1965 or so.

Given the high price of a new S&W 41 (near twice that of stainless steel Ruger MK IIIs and Browning Buckmarks), I can't imagine it's an issue of cutting corners to save a few bucks.

So what is the reason? Does stainless steel have disadvantages that I'm simply not aware of?

Thank you in advance to all who wish to help enlighten this novice.

 

[owlhoot]

When the M41 was introduced stainless was not being used in firearms. Even late into the 70's stainless steel had a bad reputation for galling. It's use was therefore reserved almost exclusively for revolvers. Add to that the fact that bullseye competitors are a fairly conservative group as a whole who want their pistols to be blued steel and walnut.

The M41 was extremely successful as a target pistol. In its day it was the best available. And I am sure it can still hold it's own today. Why would S&W want to mess with a winner?

 

[9mmepiphany]

It isn't that stainless steel has disadvantages as much as it is that carbon steel has advantages. Besides the classic look that serious target shooters prefer...there are no top tier target pistols that are manufactured in stainless steel...carbon steel guns usually run smoother (stainless has a tendency to gall)

Better stainless steel is harder on machinery, so the stainless in most pistols is manufactured from softer grades of steel as compared to their carbon counterparts...that is why stainless steel guns are easier to scratch

 

[pintler]

At least some models of Buckmarks and Mark II(I)s are intended as general purpose guns, that you might take camping or whatever. Stainless is useful in that context.

I don't think anyone is likely to take a M41 camping; they're not really suited for use anywhere but on a range, and so stainless doesn't present an advantage.

As others have said, aesthetics and tradition may matter, too. The Walther's and Hammerli's I see are also mostly blued (or dark) anyway.

 

[Walkalong]

Cause they just look cool.

 

[tipoc]

I think mainly because there has been no significant demand for them in stainless. The 41 is made as a target grade firearm, not as a field gun. S&W has made many excellent wheel guns in 22lr and many of these in stainless for trail use.

I think if there was any demand for the 41 in stainless it would be done. But there has been none. The gun is a classic and ya don't mess with a good thing too much. Stainless would not add anything to it.

tipoc

 

[Frank Ettin]

In general, carbon steel is superior for precise machining to close tolerances.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It was and is a low volume, specialty model, that was produced before stainless came into widespread use. Probably just no need for it.

 

[Drail]

Ask any machinist if he would rather machine carbon steel or stainless when the part has to be held to very tight tolerances.

 

[KJS]

Ask any machinist if he would rather machine carbon steel or stainless when the part has to be held to very tight tolerances.

Having a background in finance, I know nothing about how to machine anything.

As you saying that it would be more difficult (and thus even more costly) to make a gun with very high tolerances out of stainless steel, or that it's simply impossible to make quite as precise a gun from stainless as can be done with carbon steel?

I ask because very high tolerances & stainless makes me think of Freedom Arms and their very expensive revolvers that I believe are all stainless. I ran across a catalog from them while cleaning up too. I seem to recall it mentioning that a wooden dowl rod may be needed to push a .22 round fully into the chamber of their target-grade revolvers as the tolerances are that exceptionally tight. Wow! That sure caught my attention, being used to shooting an S&W 10 & Ruger GP100 where cartridges simply drop right in with great ease.

Guess that explains the Freedom Arms prices that make S&W look like bargain basement shopping.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Guess that explains the Freedom Arms prices that make S&W look like bargain basement shopping.

It does

FA uses high quality steel and holds very tight tolerances between parts. There is a lot of measuring and they run their machines very slowly (relative to other manufacturers) to insure accuracy of their machining

 

[tipoc]

Close tolerences can be held as well with stainless as with carbon steel. It is the case though that stainless, depending on the grade of metal, can be a tougher and gummier metal to work with and be tougher on tooling.

S&W offers 22s in alloy frame semis for field use and plinking. Numerous manufacturers offer match grade pistols in stainless which are precisely engineered and held to close tolerences.

The M41 has been marketed and sold as a match grade gun for decades now. There is no demand for it in stainless as the use of stainless gets you no benefits in this gun. If S&W could turn a profit selling the 41 in stainless they would and could produce it in stainless but why? Maybe for the novelty of it.

tipoc

 

[Pete D.]

Numerous manufacturers offer match grade pistols in stainless which are precisely engineered and held to close tolerences.

I'm trying to think of a top tier .22 match pistol made of stainless steel.
Ruger makes stainless pistols that some shooters have shot and continue to shoot very fine scores with. There's one.
Help?
Pete

 

[tipoc]

Ruger makes stainless pistols that some shooters have shot and continue to shoot very fine scores with. There's one.

I did not say just .22s. The point was made earlier that match quality guns could not be made in stainless steel. I pointed out that this is incorrect. There are many fine match quality pistols and rifles made in stainless steel in a variety of calibers. If you consider the 1911 platform alone there are many in a number of calibers.

S&W revolvers in stainless for the .22 lr shoot very well, as well as the 41 depending on ammo and the shooters skill.

The 41 has been made and marketed as a target shooters gun and in that venue there has never been a need for stainless and so no demand on S&W to make one. Folks tend not to carry the 41 in holsters on camping trips or take it hunting with them for squirrel. If some commercial manufacturer (Bianchi, Galco, etc.) makes a holster for the 41 I have not seen it. Stainless came into vogue for outdoor use in humid environments, on guns carried close to the body, where guns may get rained on, where the bluing of duty and service guns was worn off by constant use and movement, etc. The 41 usually does not get this kind of treatment.

S&W could make a 41 in stainless. It would likely be a touch more expensive which may put some potential buyers off. I think there has been little to no demand for the 41 in stainless so S&W has not made one. It has little to nothing to do with the material though.

I should add that the trend has been to alloy frames (and in some cases polymer) for .22s for quite some time now for plinking, hunting etc. This is the case with the Buckmark and offerings from Berretta, Sig, and others. In local range competitions I see the 41, Rugers, some Buckmarks and older Colts. Tradition [plays a bigger role than the metal though.

tipoc

 

[SwampWolf]

There are many fine match quality pistols and rifles made in stainless steel in a variety of calibers.

Smith & Wesson's s/s Model 952 9mm pistol is certainly a finely-made, top-notch, target pistol.

 

[jfrey]

There are always exceptions, but the guys I know who own and shoot the mod.41's are all very conservative, traditional types. If they had a choice probably wouldn't buy a stainless 41 anyway. My father-in-law only shoots one type/brand of ammo in his, nothing else. He wipes it off at the range and takes it home and thoroughly cleans it again. He has a couple of stainless pistols but most of what he buys are the older models that are blued.

S&W knows better than to mess with success.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The point was made earlier that match quality guns could not be made in stainless steel. I pointed out that this is incorrect. There are many fine match quality pistols and rifles made in stainless steel in a variety of calibers. If you consider the 1911 platform alone there are many in a number of calibers.

If that was directed at my earlier post...that isn't what I posted.

My statement was "... there are no top tier target pistols that are manufactured in stainless steel". It did not occur to me that in a thread discussing why a .22lr pistol is not made in stainless steel, that there would be a need to spell out that each statement, addressing the OP, would be related to the discussion/production of a .22lr pistol

 

[KJS]

I should add that the trend has been to alloy frames (and in some cases polymer) for .22s for quite some time now for plinking, hunting etc.

Like the popular polymer-framed Ruger 22/45. Isn't the 41 S&W's only steel-framed .22 semi-auto? I realize S&W makes steel -- stainless only at this time -- .22 revolvers.

The trend away from steel, be it carbon or stainless, would seem to apply to most handguns.

 

[Walkalong]

but the guys I know who own and shoot the mod.41's are all very conservative, traditional types.

I own a 41, as well as a Buckmark with a Tac-Sol barrel, and a Trailside. I guess I am 1/3 conservative/traditional. I would buy a 41 in SS if they made them and I caught a good deal.

I do like a pretty blue Smith, but I like Ruger revolvers in SS, and Colts in either blue or SS.

 

[SwampWolf]

Isn't the 41 S&W's only steel-framed .22 semi-auto?

Ruger makes most of their MKIII pistols with steel frames, both in stainless steel and alloy steel.

 

[KJS]

Ruger makes most of their MKIII pistols with steel frames, both in stainless steel and alloy steel.

Yeah, I'm reasonably familiar with what Ruger offers in that area. Last year I bought a blued MKIII "Target" model with a 5.5" bull barrel. I didn't think stainless was worth an extra $80 or $100 over a $350 blued gun (less after $100 discount at Cabela's).

Places that rent guns always go with stainless, but they have sweaty paws on their rental guns daily. Stainless also seems a good idea from taking camping or hunting where one can expect a gun to be exposed to moisture at times. I figured blued carbon steel was plenty rust resitant for my needs, given that I don't handle it daily and wipe it down after every use, never exposing it to rain. I have an S&W 10 that my late father stored in a damp basement for 30 years and even after that poor storage place & a total lack of care even it has no rust on it at all (except one tiny spot of superficial suface rust that you'll never even find unless you remove the grips). That pretty much convinced me that guns don't rust easily.

Ruger offers only stainless on their more costly "Hunter" & "Competition" models, with the Hunter models having fluted stainless barrels. Oddly, they have a 4.5" Hunter model that comes with Crimson Trace Laser Grips. I find some irony in that, since Crimson Trace ads are all about how they'll save your life when you have to shoot in an emergency from the most awkward of positions as you dodge bullets from a bad guy. And here Crimson Trace is being used to take down some really dangerous squirrels: "I've got nuts & I'm not afraid to use 'em!"

 

[Peter M. Eick]

As a 41 owner (I have 2) I would not buy a stainless one. Too much glare in direct sunlight.

Regarding accuracy, les Baer won't offer his 1.5" option for his 1911's in stainless. He says on his web site that you cannot machine or hold the tolerances to the level needed for a 1.5" 50 yard group with stainless.

The 41 is a classic target pistol. I convinced a buddy to buy an A series on saturday so now he will get draw into the cult of the 41.

 

[tipoc]

9mm epiphany,

I may have misread your post. I assumed you were saying that no match grade pistols in 22 lr could be made in stainless due to some quality of the metal itself. If I misinterpreted what you said I apologize.

tipoc