skippy1729
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2008
- Messages
- 37
Besides the Governor, has S&W ever made a revolver that shoots BOTH 45ACP and 45Colt without aftermarket modifications?
S&W 45ACP/45Colt?
- Thread starter skippy1729
- Start date
- Status
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Not that I am aware of. Ruger does but I have not heard of S&W releasing a convertible.
skippy1729
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2008
- Messages
- 37
I am confused. Some 625s are designed for 45ACP. Presumably the cylinders are recessed to allow for moon clips. The Governor has a recessed cylinder to allow for moon clips but will also fire 45Colt. Why can't the 625 do the same?
mcb
Member
This is the face of a S&W Governor. Notice the raised rim left around the rim of the cylinder's OD. This raised rim is where the 45 Colt and 410 shot-shell head head space. The recess in the center around the star allows the additional space needed for the moonclip on the 45 ACP (or 45 Colt if so inclined).
A 625 chamber for 45 ACP has the entire face of its cylinder machined to the same level as the recess of the governor cylinder. This head space is roughly .090 inch (the ring you see here is wear on my cylinder from the edge of the moonclips from a lot of use, no moonclip present in picture.). If one was to reamed the chambers deep enough for 45 Colt the head space would be ~.030 to larger for 45 Colt to head space correctly since 45 Colt Rim thickness is only.060.
A S&W 625 chambered for 45 Colt could be machined to match the face of the S&W Governor. For whatever reason S&W has never offered that as a factory option. That said if you have a 625/25 chambered in 45 Colt you can fairly easily have a gunsmith familiar with this conversion do so. You then have a revolver that will fired 45 ACP on a moonclips and 45 Colt with or without a moonclip.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
Traditionally, every S&W revolver made to shoot 45ACP had more space between the rear of the cylinder and the frame than any of their revolvers made to shoot 45 Colt.
This is because with a rimless cartridge case, the extractor would have nothing to grab to extract empty brass. So S&W developed half moon and full moon clips for the 45ACP ammo to be clipped to.
45 Colt rims are nominally .060 thick. The space between the rear of the cylinder and the frame is just a tad over .060 for a S&W revolver chambered for 45 Colt.
The space between the rear of the cylinder and the frame in a S&W revolver chambered for 45 ACP is about .030 more, to allow for the thickness of the clips.
Here is a photo of a couple of S&W Model 1917 revolvers, an original from 1918 at the top, and one from the Brazilian contract in the 1930s at the bottom. Notice how much space there is between the rear of the cylinder and the frame. A tad more than .090.
This Model 25-3 is chambered for 45 Colt. There is about .030 less space behind the cylinder. Only enough space for the 45 Colt rims, no clips needed.
At the top of this photo is the Model 25-3, at the bottom is a 1955 Target chambered for 45 ACP. If you look carefully you should be able to see there is more space behind the cylinder with the 45ACP revolver than the 45 Colt revolver.
In the 1930s the 45 Auto Rim cartridge was developed for the Model 1917 without the use of clips. The rim was about .090 thick, to make up for the absence of clips.This allowed the cartridges to be head spaced on the rims. The 45 Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.
MCB is correct. A 45 Colt revolver could have the center of the rear of the cylinder relieved by .030 to allow 45ACP cartridges with clips to be seated. This is not possible with a 45 ACP revolver because 45 Colt rims would have .030 of slop when seated. As to why S&W has not offered this option, you would have to ask them.
Traditionally, every S&W revolver made to shoot 45ACP had more space between the rear of the cylinder and the frame than any of their revolvers made to shoot 45 Colt.
This is because with a rimless cartridge case, the extractor would have nothing to grab to extract empty brass. So S&W developed half moon and full moon clips for the 45ACP ammo to be clipped to.
45 Colt rims are nominally .060 thick. The space between the rear of the cylinder and the frame is just a tad over .060 for a S&W revolver chambered for 45 Colt.
The space between the rear of the cylinder and the frame in a S&W revolver chambered for 45 ACP is about .030 more, to allow for the thickness of the clips.
Here is a photo of a couple of S&W Model 1917 revolvers, an original from 1918 at the top, and one from the Brazilian contract in the 1930s at the bottom. Notice how much space there is between the rear of the cylinder and the frame. A tad more than .090.
This Model 25-3 is chambered for 45 Colt. There is about .030 less space behind the cylinder. Only enough space for the 45 Colt rims, no clips needed.
At the top of this photo is the Model 25-3, at the bottom is a 1955 Target chambered for 45 ACP. If you look carefully you should be able to see there is more space behind the cylinder with the 45ACP revolver than the 45 Colt revolver.
In the 1930s the 45 Auto Rim cartridge was developed for the Model 1917 without the use of clips. The rim was about .090 thick, to make up for the absence of clips.This allowed the cartridges to be head spaced on the rims. The 45 Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.
MCB is correct. A 45 Colt revolver could have the center of the rear of the cylinder relieved by .030 to allow 45ACP cartridges with clips to be seated. This is not possible with a 45 ACP revolver because 45 Colt rims would have .030 of slop when seated. As to why S&W has not offered this option, you would have to ask them.
skippy1729
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2008
- Messages
- 37
Thanks, guys, for taking the time to explain it to me.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
I have an S&W model 25 Classic (25-15) in .45 Colt. I debated on having TK Custom cut the cylinder for moon clips for .45 ACP, but I have decided not to do that. Maybe later on, but for now I would prefer to leave it as it was when it left the factory.
I have a Ruger New Vaquero .45 Colt that I had Ruger make a .45 ACP cylinder made for it. It is more accurate with my .45 ACP loads than it is with .45 Colt. Not sure why.
It’s nice to have a gun that shoots both but with the single action you have an extra cylinder to contend with.
I have a Ruger New Vaquero .45 Colt that I had Ruger make a .45 ACP cylinder made for it. It is more accurate with my .45 ACP loads than it is with .45 Colt. Not sure why.
It’s nice to have a gun that shoots both but with the single action you have an extra cylinder to contend with.
if one is looking for a 45lc/acp revolver the ruger blackhawk convertible is a sweet piece.
of course bond arms offers barrels in 45lc and 45acp for its derringers. i find that shooting 45lc feels better in the hand in a solid way, but 45acp is sharp and unpleasant.
of course bond arms offers barrels in 45lc and 45acp for its derringers. i find that shooting 45lc feels better in the hand in a solid way, but 45acp is sharp and unpleasant.
Attachments
Last edited:
As I mentioned on the other forum, S&W did actually produce one N frame chambered so a single cylinder would chamber both cartridges. I do not own it but it seems like a good machinist shoul be able to duplicate it.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...147441-1950-model-45-target-found-tucson.html
Kevin
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...147441-1950-model-45-target-found-tucson.html
Kevin
Old_Grouch
Member
The cylinder would have to be reamed to .45 Colt specs. ACP rounds will headspace on the case mouth in a S&W .45 ACP revolver just as they do in an auto or a single action .45 ACP.
One problem with using .45 ACP in a Colt/ACP gun is that when shooting the ACP rounds there is a substantial velocity loss as the bullet exits the case completely before entering the cylinder throat. For a short distance the bullet is traveling through a case-diameter section of the cylinder allowing gas blow-by. My .45 ACP loads chrono nearly 150 fps slower in my Redhawk than in my 1911. The same load only loses about 20 FPS in a model 25. I've not done any comparisons for accuracy of Colt vs ACP out of the Redhawk but I certainly can't believe that the jump from the case to the throat would help it any.
One problem with using .45 ACP in a Colt/ACP gun is that when shooting the ACP rounds there is a substantial velocity loss as the bullet exits the case completely before entering the cylinder throat. For a short distance the bullet is traveling through a case-diameter section of the cylinder allowing gas blow-by. My .45 ACP loads chrono nearly 150 fps slower in my Redhawk than in my 1911. The same load only loses about 20 FPS in a model 25. I've not done any comparisons for accuracy of Colt vs ACP out of the Redhawk but I certainly can't believe that the jump from the case to the throat would help it any.
- Status
