S&W Airlite revolvers and CCI primers don't mix? Sticky hammer?

[GJgo]

Hey fellas, I'm new here- seems to be a good forum with lots of knowledgeable folks.

So.. I have a model 357 Airlite PD, .41 mag. Shot it for the first time last weekend. Before you ask, no, I don't mind the recoil and at PD distances it is quite accurate. I bought it to carry when fly fishing in the summer and hunting in the fall. (I live in the Rockies)

I started off with a 50 rd box if Remington soft point 210gr ammo. It was clocking around 1200fps, and the primers were cratering slightly but not flattening. Towards the end I had one FTF where the primer just ot a little baby indentation in it from the firing pin.

I also tried a box of Winchester Silvertips in 170gr (175?). They clocked a little slower. Out of the box of 20 I had all fire as they should.

Next, I went to a box of 210gr Gold Dot rounds- they clocked at around 1250 and flattened a few primers. Out of the box of 20 I got maybe 5 or 6 FTF. As I understand it, Speer uses CCI primers.

Finally, I tried 210gr Gold Dot bullets that I had handloaded behind various test amounts of H110 and CCI magnum primers. Out of about 40 handloads I only had 3 that fired! They were seated as far as my RCBS hand priming tool would allow. The rest that did not fire all had little baby firing pin indentations, and still had bullets in the business end..

I then noticed that the hammer, when manually released, was sticking halfway through the stroke back to its resting state. As it turns out, that little "safety" mechanism (key) that S&W is using (right above the cylinder release) had come up a little from the recoil generated by the lightweight gun and full house rounds and was causing the hammer to hang up on its stroke towards the firing pin. When released slowly it would stop the hammer, actually.

When I got home I cleaned and lubricated the gun. I put the "safety" through its range of operation a number of times and returned it to "off". Now, the hammer was no longer hanging up and was operating as it should- smoothly and quickly. To test, I took two empty peices of brass and primed one with a CCI primer and one with a Federal primer. (As we know, CCI uses a hard cup and federal uses a soft cup.) I test fired both, and while the Federal primer worked as it should the CCI primer FTF and just had the same little pin dent in it even with the hammer operating in its full range of motion and speed!

This tells me two things, and I am looking for others' experience/ opinions. First, it seems that the Airlite lightweight parts (hammer) do not have the momentum to ignite CCI primers. This means I will not be using them in handloads for hunting, nor using Speer ammo for personal defense (carry). That is a shame because I like Gold Dot. Second, the increased recoil can potentially cause problems with the hammer fall by upsetting the built in "safety". As I understand that can be removed by grinding something off, which I may pursue.

Next I will duplicate the handloads with Federal primers. Not sure about trying Winchester primers. I will not try Remington primers. I will not pursue a trigger job because it would further lighten the hammer fall.

I also have the same gun in the .357 snubbie- the Airlite 360 PD (IIRC). This is my carry gun so I would not consider a trigger job anyway, but I question if I should look into disabling that "safety" for litigious reasons. Sure seems a lot safer without it! I will not consider Gold Dot as a PD carry round option- the risk of FTF seems too great. Fortunately I also like certain Federal and Cor Bon PD rounds in .357 and .38+p.

So what do you guys think?

 

[Car Knocker]

Is this revolver NIB?

 

[GJgo]

Yes.

 

[Old Fuff]

Check and be sure the mainspring strain screw is screwed in all of the way. Next, check to be sure the firing pin spring isn't mashed. If none of these turn out to be issues, check the headspace. When all is said and done if it still doesn't work, return it to Smith & Wesson. An unaltered revolver should bust any brand of primers, without question - 100% of the time.

 

[GJgo]

I assume I can remove the side plate to inspect the main spring and other assemblies? This is my first revolver.

When I extend the firing pin manually by decocking and view it from the side, it looks like a nice conical pin and not smashed. (the same as in my other Airlite) However, when I visually assess how far the pin comes out vs. the headspace of a loaded cartridge, without really knowing what clearances I am looking for it seems like it may be a little excessive. In both S&W pistols there is a gap between the face of the round and the back of the frame- I could get out my feeler gauge set tomorrow and measure the gap if that would help to determine anything. Anyone know what it should be?

Any opinion on using a dry lube such as Remington sells (a Teflon product) on the internal mechanisms?

 

[Sundles]

I use nothing but CCI 350 primers in all my ammo for 44 mag. and 41 mag. including one S&W model 329 and after firing tens of thousands of rounds in a variety of those different revolvers, I've never had a failure to fire.

Something is wrong with your particular revolver.

 

[jaybar]

Try an extra length firing pin

Cylinder & Slide makes an extra length firing pin available through Brownells http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5483&title=S%26W+REVOLVER+EXTRA+LENGTH+FIRING+PIN I've used them in quite a few guns after lightening the DA pull to achieve consistent ignition. They work and the price is right.

 

[GJgo]

I actually wrote S&W customer service on the matter and they asked that I send the gun in for warranty service.

I did take some measurements last night. The gap between the cylinder and the barrel is .003", and the gap between head of a chambered round and the back plate (where the firing pin would extend) is .017". Seems a little far.

Just to see I also measured my Airlite 360PD in the same fashion. The cylinder to barrel gap is .006" and the gap between a chambered round and the pin seat is .010".

On another note, I fired .357 rounds through my 360PD last night for the first time- previously I have been practicing with .38 +p rounds. I won't lie- the .357 rounds hurt like hell. I could barely get through 5 rounds, much less group two shots anywhere near each other. It makes the .41 mag feel like a stroll through the park!

To add to the oddness, about 30% of the 357 rounds I fired kicked so hard that the recoil actually kicked the hammer back after the round fired and caused it to lock up at about 60% of the range travel. I had to de-cock it before I could continue firing. Looks like two good reasons to stick with .38 +p..

 

[johnny blaze]

I would mention the lock to them if you send it back.
Every time I call Smith and Wesson, they always tell me that they have no problems with the locks. From all the posts that I have read in various forums, there is definately a problem.
I recently purchased one with the lock. It is really crude how the hammer stop sticks up beside the hammer, that keeps it from firing when the lock is engaged.
I am not sre how the hammerless lock works.
Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into the lock thread. I just wish that S&W would admit that there are malfunctions with the lock.:banghead:

 

[earplug]

Send it back

I recently bought a S&W 625-8 that had several failure to fire rounds and one out of time chamber.
Phone S&W and they will send you the information to do the free shipping.
Will take about 10-14 days.
My revolver is much nicer now.

 

[GJgo]

So I sent it in. Fingers crossed!

I just got a set of Decelerator grips for my Airlite .357. Like them so much on the Airlite .41.. It fills my hand and makes it larger (for carry), but hopefully it wil make it much better to shoot. Going to try those gold dot 135gr short barrel .357 loads so we'll see if it keeps doing OK with CCI primers..

 

[DrLaw]

Main Spring. Don't have to remove the side plate to see it. Just the grips. The main spring has a strain screw that is on the front of the grip strap just a half inch or so from the bottom of the strap. This is screwed in to adjust the spring. Some people will unscrew it a bit to make the trigger pull feel lighter double action, but they are just fooling themselves. This actually makes the hammer fall lighter, causing the type of problems you are describing.

Smith should fix it for you no problem. They fixed two guns for me before without problems, cylinder not on time and a broken firing pin.

The Doc is out now.

 

[GJgo]

I remember that screw on the .41. It was screwed all the way tight. I'll remember to leave it alone in any case..

Does anyone else have a set of feeler gauges where they could measure the gaps on the cylinder like I did?

 

[paul105]

You Did The Right Thing Sending It Back to S&W

I had a 329 PD that I started getting some light firing pin hits with. I checked the strain screw, and it was tight. Rather than sending it back to S&W, I had a local smith check it out. He diagnosed “end shake” and the appropriate shim(s) was/were installed. Worked for 30 rounds or so – misfires (light firing pin hits) cropped up again. Back to the gunsmith. He fixed something else – back to the range – 50 rounds fired and no problems. Took it out the next day, and after a couple of cyls full, more misfires. Took it out again next morning – fired 13 rounds and misfires started in – let it cool down – It fired six rounds no problem and started misfiring again. The firing pin protrusion thru the fame appeared to be marginal. It seems that as the gun heated up during firing (temps been 25 to 35 deg F), the dimensions changed just enough (along with the marginal firing pin protrusion) to cause very light firing pin hits. I ordered a Cyl & Slide Shop “Long Firing Pin”, and had my gunsmith install it. This solved the ignition problems (fired every time with great firing pin hits), however, the gun locked up after two or 3 rounds. The firing pin stuck in the forward position after the round had fired, and could only be reset by tapping a bronze rod thru the barrel and fired case against the primer/firing pin. The after market “long firing pin” has been turned/polished on three separate occasions and still sticks as mentioned above. Finally sent it back to S&W -- they fixed it and had it back in less than two weeks.

 

[Taadski]

Finally sent it back to S&W -- they fixed it and had it back in less than two weeks.

Paul105,

Did S&W provide any follow up information when they returned your weapon? It would be interesting to know what steps they took to rectify the problem.

I own a 340pd that I've had a couple of instances of light hits with. All of them took place with a commercial brand of .38 reloads (the manufacturer is escaping me and I'm not sure what kind of primers they were). No problems with a variety of other practice loads (mostly Remington) or with my carry Federals though. Perhaps I should try some cci primers to ensure I don't have a problem also?

Any thoughts?

GJgo,

I'm very interested in hearing your outcome. Keep us posted if you don't mind and thanks for sharing...

Taadski

 

[paul105]

Taadski,

Paperwork returned with 329PD stated that they had "Replaced the Firing Pin".

Ususally, S&W doesn't give a lot of detail when they fix stuff.

If you are getting any light firing pin hits with any ammo, and you haven't done anything to the mainspring, I would send it back to S&W and let them fix it.

Paul

 

[GJgo]

Thanks guys.

Well I tried some of the Gold Dot 135gr .357 short barrel in my 360PD this weekend, and really loved it. (with Pachmayr Decelerators on it) That gun with its .010" gap on the pin has never failed to fire yet, even with Speer ammo. I'm going to continue to practice with this new GD round as I want it to be my carry ammo. Also, it is the ONLY carry ammo I have tested that did not unseat the bullet AT ALL after carrying 1 round through 3 "go arounds" of the cylinder (4 shots on each go around, 5 round cylinder). Everything else was unseated to some extent after 1 go-around!

I'll post when I get the gun back and put some through it.

 

[loplop]

I just bought a M&P340 and tried the Gold Dot 357 short barrel load... lots of fun! That load, and the GDHP 38spl short barrel load were the only two I had on hand (other than target loads) were the only ones that didn't jump crimp for me, too.

My fav load, the FBI Load 38spl 158gr jumped crimp very badly. Can't say I didn't expect it...

The 110gr 357mag Winchester Personal Protection also jumped crimp. That was a fun load... lots of flash and bang.

I'm carrying the 357 GDHP now.

 

[GJgo]

Just got my .41 back. Not only did they overnight it both ways, but when the received it I got a letter to let me know it made it ok. On the letter was the following:

Customer complaint: Misfires, hammer bind.
Repaired: replace hammer, replace frame (same s/n), repair lock.

I'll post after I have some rounds through it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Customer complaint: Misfires, hammer bind.
Repaired: replace hammer, replace frame (same s/n), repair lock.

I'd say the service was great, but I'd wonder how it got out of the factory in the first place. Inspection is clearly something that was done in the past.

repair lock.

Can't be. There are no problems with the lock.

The Old Fuff will stick with his older guns, thank you... You guys can have the space-age stuff.

 

[Old Fuff]

Possibly related thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=267145

 

[Taadski]

Thanks for all the information everyone. It's very much appreciated.

The issues with some of the scandium j-frames is a bit frightening albeit possibly unrelated. You can bet I've gone over mine with a fine toothed comb. In conjunction with some of my FTF issues though, I think I'll be placing a call to customer service also. I can't bare the thought of the weapon not being 100% reliable.

I'll try and forward what I find out.

 

[paul105]

From GJgo post above.

Customer complaint: Misfires, hammer bind.
Repaired: replace hammer, replace frame (same s/n), repair lock.


500 rounds After the firing pin replacement mentioned above, I noticed the cylinder was binding on something. Examined the 329, and noticed the blast shield had shot loose. When I returned it to S&W to fix the blast shield, I also had them check the "carry up".

When it was returned (12 days total turnaround incl shipping), the paperwork stated:

Replaced frame w/same S/N, and replaced cylinder.

Maybe, S&W had some bad alloy or frame castings.

S&Ws warranty service is great -- just wish they would "front end" potential probs.

I have two 329s, and shoot one or the other almost every day. I love these revolvers, wouldn't be without one (that's why I have two), and will continue to use them everyday.

FWIW,

Paul

 

[Old Fuff]

The issues with some of the scandium j-frames is a bit frightening albeit possibly unrelated. You can bet I've gone over mine with a fine toothed comb. In conjunction with some of my FTF issues though, I think I'll be placing a call to customer service also. I can't bare the thought of the weapon not being 100% reliable.

There have been issues with the "3xx" series of revolvers for a long time. What you guys are is S&W's beta testers. If you want 100% reliability use something more conventional (and proven) until they get the bugs worked out - if they ever do.

 

[GJgo]

Yeah.. But.. When you are hiking around up over 10,000' every ounce saved helps you out a lot. That's why I went with the 3xx series.