S&W M1917 Fitz special

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I remember the arguements between the NYPD detectives (of whom my Uncle Gill was one) when I was a youngster in Chic Gaylord's hang out gunshop. The "Fitz" was highly reguarded by those EXCEPT the ones whose trigger guard bent up just enough that the gun wouldn't fire.Unsupported and thinned down steel bent up close to the trigger?

The trigger guard wouldn't bend because the tip of the trigger was so close to the bottom of the guard that it couldn't bend upward. It could bend sideways however, but it would take a hard blow to do it. Paul Weston, one of NYCPD's top firearms instructors had a Fitz, made on a .38 Cobra platform.

Gaylord's shop was an interesting place, which I visited during my one and only visit to the Big Apple. His holster designs were far advanced for the times, and today he is mostly forgoten.

If the trigger guard bending was a serious issue it would have been discovered by the middle 1930's and Colt would have stopped making them. As it was, some were still being made during the middle 1950's.
 
Clearly, there were many who didn't (and don't) like Fitzgerald's "Specials" either during the time they were being made - or now. But on the other hand some very experienced and knowledgeable gunfighters of the time (and to a very small degree now) used them. These men were not stupid, and I'm sure they knew the risks. But they also knew what worked and what didn't during the few seconds that a fight might be in progress. They did what they did to survive, and most of them did. Suurvival is the whole name of the game, and if one didn't the rest didn't matter. If a more conventional revolver had been equally as good that's what they would have used. Why go to the extra expense and trouble to have a custom gun made? Those that carried Fitz Specials did so because they believed that the design gave them an edge. Those who disagreed didn't.

Today the Fitzgerald Special is pretty much a moot point, as only one current revolver manufacturer makes a product that might be considered to be an acceptable platform. Colt is long-gone in this area, and isn't likely to revisit it.

Everyone has a right to have an opinion, and without question the Fitz trigger guard modification is now a long, long ways from being acceptable. But those that object to it should take note that some very competent, experienced and knowledgeable gunfighters did use it, and given their backgrounds what they believed shouldn't be taken lightly.
 
But those that object to it should take note that some very competent, experienced and knowledgeable gunfighters did use it, and given their backgrounds what they believed shouldn't be taken lightly.

Here is an article written about the life of the those men, Col. Charles Askins http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_143_23/ai_56221628/?tag=content;col1

As for Askins opinion of the cut away trigger guard, here is an excerpt from the above article
"his personal New Service .38, that one fitted with a King sight rib and a cutaway trigger guard. He shot men with both guns."
 
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Those that carried Fitz Specials did so because they believed that the design gave them an edge. Those who disagreed didn't.
Sometimes believing something gives you an edge is more important than something actually giving you an edge (since mindset is of utmost importance). I imagine if there was a real, significant and measurable advantage to the cut away trigger guard it would have become the widely accepted standard for small pocket revolvers.

Still interesting to dig into the history of handguns and shooting. And based on Fuff's explanation I wouldn't be worried to pack a Fitz in pocket (but I'll still stick with my double stack, plastic auto chucker in an IWB holster thankyouverymuch :D ).

Now this particular gun does get me thinkin' ... I remember you used to be able to find 1917s for next to nothing. Wish now I'd have picked one up and had it all round butted and snubbiefied.
 
I remember you used to be able to find 1917s for next to nothing. Wish now I'd have picked one up and had it all round butted and snubbiefied.

Next to nothing was about $17.00 from a mail order vendor... :what:

Yes, we cut them down in wholesale lots, but relatively few had the trigger guard chopped. The Fitz Special wasn't generally accepted because not a whole lot were made. Colt never advertised them, and most orders were placed through Fitzgerald himself from selected individuals. Ordinary buyers were either not aware of them, or were but didn't like them. What is interesting is who the ones that got them were...

I suspect that I may be the only one posting on this thread that ever used a Fitzgerald style revolver. Many years ago I decided to experiment, rather then simply reject the whole idea. So I converted an old Police Positive .38 to see if it worked. It did, and the principal advantage was that you could get a correct grip on the handle and have your trigger finger in place while the gun was still in the pocket. There is no way to draw a gun faster! Otherwise you have to move the hand to wherever the gun is, grip it - and then pull it out of the holster just to get started.

Now I fully understand the advantages of today's polymer, large capacity pistols, but they don't mean much if you've been hit by a big slug fired from an old revolver that got into action first... :uhoh:
 
^^

Did you ever carry a Fitz style revolver Old Fuff?


I think Oro has a Fitz style Colt 1917 if I remember right. Dont know if he carries it though
 
I too had a Fitz style 1917 and shot it before reselling it for profit in the early 1980s. It MAY have been a real Fitz ! The cut down to round profile butt had a few oz. of lead poured under the grips. Every thing was very well executed, but I just didn't like the thinned and cut trigger guard. Somebody else couldn't live with out it . I think I paid $400 in1981 and sold for $600 in 1983. I haven't lost much on Colts over the years!
 
...the principal advantage was that you could get a correct grip on the handle and have your trigger finger in place while the gun was still in the pocket.
Yeah, I can see that. Also I can see an advantage of carrying in the winter in the pocket of a heavy coat while wearing gloves.
 
I modified this S & W Model 36 in 1989, for the Pocket.


Sits fine in regular Levi 501s...and I am medium-slender build, average height.


Carried virtually every day till a couple months ago when I went to a Model 10.



Found an old Shoulder Holster which it fit perfectly, seen in the image background...but only wore it in that mode a few times.





A larger person, and or larger, stronger ( re-inforced) Trouser Pockets, and, a .44 or .45 Big-Frame Colt or S & W modified similarly, would carry just fine of course.


I used to ride Motorcycle a lot, and front Trouser Pocket made the most sense to me, as well as, being able to operate the Revolver while wearing Riding Gloves.


Daily Life also, front Trouser pocket is a very discrete and unexpected carry mode, where, as Old Fuff reminds, one may be at-ready, while appearing entirely unconcerned or disinterested, merely standing at ease with a hand in one's pocket...
 
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Did you ever carry a Fitz style revolver Old Fuff?

Read post #30...

I suspect that I may be the only one posting on this thread that ever used a Fitzgerald style revolver. Many years ago I decided to experiment, rather then simply reject the whole idea. So I converted an old Police Positive .38 to see if it worked. It did, and the principal advantage was that you could get a correct grip on the handle and have your trigger finger in place while the gun was still in the pocket. There is no way to draw a gun faster! Otherwise you have to move the hand to wherever the gun is, grip it - and then pull it out of the holster just to get started.

Now I see that Oyeboten did much the same. It must be that our greatest minds think alike... :D

I should also add that while the Fitz Specials that were made on the large New Service frame - usually chambered in .45 Colt - are the best known and desired, Colt would make the conversion on any double-action revolver they offered. Some folks just didn't have big pockets. Probably the next most popular platform was the Police Positive Special, and later the Detective Special.
 
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This quote is from post #28.

Here is an article written about the life of the those men, Col. Charles Askins http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

I hope that everyone will click on the link, and go read the article. In particular take careful note of the circumstances and distances involved in the real-life gunfights Askins got into. Sometimes his adversary was so close Askins had to fight to keep his gun from being yanked away. On another occasion a fight took place between two cars parked side by side.

Real gunfights are usually not like combat gun-games. They tend to be close, quick and unexpected.

Thereafter you may understand where Fitzgerald's thinking was coming from, and why Askins wasn't the least concerned about cut-away trigger guards.
 
It says you used one, not carried.

I will take it that you have in fact carried one a few times at least.:cool:

Why did you stop? I am suspecting you no longer carry a Fitz type anymore.

The reason I ask is not to challenge you but rather ask what has come about since the Fitz fad that made carrying a Fitz type less than ideal?
 
Old Fuff had mentioned -


I should also add that while the Fitz Specials that were made on the large New Service frame - usually chambered in .45 Colt - are the best known and desired, Colt would make the conversion on any double-action revolver they offered. Some folks just didn't have big pockets. Probably the next most popular platform was the Police Positive Special, and later the Detective Special.


...or, some folks just did not have big enough bodys for a Big Frame to sit well in a their-size Trouser pocket! Lol... Many people were smaller then than now...


More or less from which, came the Colt 'Dective Special' I think.


Oddly, far as I can tell, neither Colt nor S&W were featuring 'Snub Nose' Revolvers for a long time, other than by special order.


Any Factory configuration pre-war ( meaning, of course, pre World War II ) .38 Special or larger Caliber 'Snub Nose' Revolvers are quite rare.

Pretty rare even in Iver Johnson and other, too...though these would be limited to .32 or .38 S&W.


People shortening the Police Positive 'Special' ( ie: .38 Special instead of .38 S&W ) , or, shortening the S&W 'M&P' Revolvers, and, the universal high regard of the even further modifed 'Fitz Specials', appears to have led to tacit permission for a wider audience, emulation among Plain Clothes Detectives or other, and, for S&W and Colt to begin featuring or promoting ( or at least bothering to Catalogue) 2 inch Barreled Revolvers in .38 Special, after WWII.

But anyway...


Personally, I would say a 'Fitz' or 'Fitzesque' Special, of whatever scale or Caliber one can accomidate, is an "Ideal" side arm far as Revolvers go, in and of itself, and, in the manner and convenience of it's traditional ( ie: 'Trouser Pocket' ) Carry.


While I had switched to an IWB, 3 inch, Bobbed-Hammer S&W Model 10-6, and, I find it to be comfortable and easy...


I am hankering to find an earlyish Model 10 'Snubby', and, to do a full fledged 'Fitz' Style modification to it, and have a Seamstress re-inforce and deepen some various Work and other Trousers for it.


Far as regular unmodified 501 Levis, and many other now-a-days Trousers, my having shortened the Grip of the Model 36 S&W, was about as big as a front Pocket would stand...and if I had not shortened the Grip, the Pocket would be too shallow, or the Revolver too long, and the Grip would be partially sticking out.
 
I like that S&W 1917 on GB. Any trigger related concerns regarding holstering/pocketing of this style revolver are easily addressed by keeping ones thumb on the hammer. If the trigger is being depressed the hammer would be felt moving back under the thumb's pressure. :banghead:
 
One never draws by pulling on the Trigger anyway, regardless of if the Bow is encircling, or, open.


Meant to be saying before, that the Dective Special appears to have resulted from inspirations of people, Fitz included, shortening the then Police Positive Special...and I was not meaning to infer that the Detective Special was ever a Pocket Revolver, as the 'Fitz' configurations usually were.

Pocket Revolvers have Bobbed Hammers...of course...lest they stay only too well IN the Pocket when one had hoped TO draw...Lol...


I have carried a 'Bobbed' 2 inch Colt New Service in .45 ACP, if in fairly strong Pants Pockets...but unless the Pocket is very strong, and deep enough, it is no good...the lining tears at the place where the Barrel end weighs, and or also weighs too hard on the upper areas or the fabric pulls apart there...has to be a strong or re-inforced Pocket for a Large Frame Pocket Revolver to be secure.


Men's Work or Dress Trousers used to have much larger front Pockets in Fitz's day than now, also.
 
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I just checked GB, there is one bid on the M1917. LOL the pistol had 461 views thus far according to the counter. I wonder if it is a THR member?
 
Late to this thread. The proper holster for some of the Fitz guns would be a Berns Martin that was designed and fitted for the gun. I still use the original holster that came with my Fitz.

gizamo
 
So ugly it's pretty :neener:

fitz7.jpg

And the grip treatment inspired me to do the same with my wife's M36 in nickel.
I was careful to use the proper "friction tape", too.

Handguns009-2.gif
 
You get Clemenza to fix those up for you? Remember, two shots in the head, then put your arm down, and let the gun drop to the floor. Everyone will think you've still got it. When you leave, get out fast, but don't run. Don't look nobody in the eye, but don't look away either.
 
It says you used one, not carried. I will take it that you have in fact carried one a few times at least. Why did you stop? I am suspecting you no longer carry a Fitz type anymore.

The reason I ask is not to challenge you but rather ask what has come about since the Fitz fad that made carrying a Fitz type less than ideal?


Apparently some folks are reading things in my posts that I didn’t intend. When I said, “used,” I presumed that everyone would understand that “used” in context with a revolver that was intended to be pocket carried would indeed be carried that way. If I confused anyone I’m sorry.

My involvement in the Fitz saga started back in the early 1960’s. My interest was mostly academic in nature, because I had no intention of getting into gunfights. Besides, my Daddy had told me such affairs could be especially detrimental to one’s health. I knew what a “Fitz Special” was, and most of the arguments for and against, but I also knew that a lot of interesting and experienced gentlemen (none of whom I had met yet) either used or endorsed them for they’re intended purpose. Also in they’re favor was the fact that none of them were armchair theorists.

So when a somewhat doggy Colt Police Positive (chambered in .38 S&W, not, .38 Special) came my way I decided to sacrifice it, and reached for my trusty and often used hacksaw… It soon had a gender change because the side of the barrel was stamped “Detective Special,” (the old round kind with a half-moon front sight, as they were still easily and cheaply obtained). Otherwise I followed Fitzgerald’s format, except that I eliminated the single-action feature and didn’t checker the top of the hammer.

Not wanting to go to the trouble of installing leather lined pockets in all my pants, I used a home-made pocket holster – which would never be a serious challenge to S.D. Myres, but never the less it worked.

Over a little more then a decade I sometimes carried the little pocket persuader, and somehow never had any of the problems that supposedly made them dangerous to use or carry. On the other hand I discovered that in the tight confines of a pocket I could get a full hold the butt (no need to put my thumb over a hammer spur) with my finger around the trigger. I suppose that touching the trigger will make some people nervous, and I fervently hope that (1) they never do such a thing, and (2) never get into a gunfight.

Eventually someone made me an offer that was too good to turn down, and my homemade Fitz went away. For the record, neither then nor now have I had qualms about carrying one, but in today’s rather hysterical bliss nanny dominated environment where consumer safety (real or doubtful) is of the greatest importance, I decided if I used one in a completely justified shooting I would still come across as being totally irresponsible and have to explain to various disapproving police investigators, district attorneys, lawyers of every description, and maybe through one of them a judge and jury, how it came that I had such an awful and clearly accident prone weapon. If it’s necessary to go to such lengths with members of this board, think what it would be like in the outside world.

If Mr. Fitzgerald were alive today and proposed his idea to the present Colt management I’m sure they’d turn it down cold – even as an off-the-record custom item. In fact not too long ago they made a sample for a proposed Fitz commemorative that had all the features, except for a cut away trigger guard. In this country engineers and real gunfighters seldom design new guns. That’s left to lawyers who insist they be stamped in billboard-sized letters “Don’t touch!!! Read the instruction book first.” Askins, Applegate and the others were fortunate to have lived in a different era.

What started me in this thread was a comment made by another member that Fitzgerald “was foolish” when he incorporated an abbreviated trigger guard in his design. The fact is, he was a highly skilled gunsmith and sales promoter who wore many hats at Colt, including the very important job of being the company’s liaison between them and the law enforcement community. During the dark days of the 1930’s Depression he was largely responsible for keeping Colt out of bankruptcy. His basic thoughts on revolvers and the best way to carry them concealed were perfected over a number of years, and nothing was offered for sale until it had been extensively “field tested,” by a number of carefully chosen individuals besides himself. Clearly, this man was a far cry from being stupid or foolish.

So with all that’s been said, a question remains, will the Old Fuff ever make himself another Fitz Special? I might, it’s an itch that needs to be scratched. It’s really a case of finding the right platform. There can be a problem with Smith & Wesson’s because of the way the cylinder stop spring is nested. Older Colt’s have become expensive, and parts can be a problem. Ruger’s modular design isn’t very compatible for this kind of modification. Taurus on the other hand, has the cylinder stop spring & plunger nested inside the yoke’s lower hub, well out of the way of any work that might be done to the trigger guard. A stainless/aluminum 85 CIS (Carry It Anywhere) with an enclosed hammer might make an interesting Fitz variation of modern origin that didn’t cost an arm and a leg…

Maybe… ;)
 
What started me in this thread was a comment made by another member that Fitzgerald “was foolish” when he incorporated an abbreviated trigger guard in his design.
I resemble that remark.

Seriously, the "hysterical bliss nanny dominated environment where consumer safety (real or doubtful) is of the greatest importance" is what lead me react in knee jerk fashion to seeing the Fitz. In this day and age simply seeing someone photographed with their finger on the trigger is enough to send most of us into apoplexy.

But hey, I'm not too big to admit when I might be wrong, and the more I read on the subject and the more I think about it (and the more I sit here fiddling around with my S&W Model 29 ... the only DA revolver I have immediate access to) it seems to me that the only real safety feature a DA pocket revolver really needs is, well the "DA" bit.
 
... it seems to me that the only real safety feature a DA pocket revolver really needs is, well the "DA" bit.

It depends on how you define, "safety."

Your Smith & Wesson has two independent safeties that prevents an accidental discharge. It won't fire unless the trigger is held fully to the rear during the time the hammer goes down. When the trigger is forward you can beat on the hammer spur (if there is one) and the revolver won't fire even if there is a loaded cartridge lined up with the bore. You don't have to manually put either of these safeties on or off. The revolver's lockwork does that for you.

Colt used a similar system starting in 1908. All of the platforms used by Colt to make Fitz Specials were so equipped. The only unintended/unexpected discharges I ever heard of occured when someone tried to lower the spurless hammer and slipped while holding the trigger fully to the rear.

Then the gun would do what it was supposed to do... :eek:
 
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