S&W Mod 25

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sitkablacktail

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I saw that S&W are offering a Mod 25 in 45 Colt with a 4" barrel, I'm on the fence on ordering it for carry in the woods behind the house for brown bears, I have a marlin 1894S in 45 Colt and the 25 would dovetail in nicely . My question is how strong are these, I handload and want to use 300 grain hardcasts which I use in the Marlin during deer season, I'm looking at a warm load but not a hot load for both. I just don't want to see the barrel going down range, because the pistol won't handle nothing higher than a cowboy load. I am on the consertive side when it comes to hand loading and my thoughts are 1100 -1200 fps published load for a 300 grainer, which will not be used a lot, plinking would be with 200 -250 grainers using Unique. Is this the same frame they use for thier 44 mag?
 
N frame. These are leftover Heritage frames IIRC that have to be used for something. They would make nice safe queens. I would suggest Ruger. In single action, Bisley BH in 45 LC. Double action would be the SRH in 454/45 LC.
 
Josey I want get away from the single action, the SRH 454/45, is way to heavy, what is the N frame is that the one for the 357 mag, also what is the Heritage frame. I don't know much about Smiths, I do own one a semiauto in 22 that's pretty nice. Basicaly I want a pistol that I cam empty real fast at like ten feet, I figue if I'm going to get mauled I'm getting some. I have carried my Ruger Blackhawk in 41 mag for 14 years in bear country and never needed it so I want to lighten my load a little. I looked a Taurus but I just can't do it.
 
Smith .45 Colts are not very strong. Pushing 300 grainers in it should be avoided.
The Ruger Redhawk, Colt Anaconda, or the Dan Wesson would be a much stronger choice with the loads you want.
 
The current S&W .45 Colt Mountain Gun isn't based on the four-screw heritage frames. It appears to be a normal blued N-frame. S&W doesn't recommend anything stronger than standard pressure factory loads. That said, a 250-255 grain lead bullet at 900-950 fps (Rem. and Win. factory ammo) is nothing to sneeze at. The gun is also a nice weight for carrying around all day.
 
N FRAME BASHING

I understand why alot of folks continue to bash the vaulted N frame but it gets tiresome. The basic frame appeared almost 100 years ago and has undergone numerous changes since then. Most will agree that modern handguns have a 50% safety factor and the 'N' is also produced in .44MAG.

The question was would the gun hold up to a limited number of 300 grain bear-stopper loads. I say YES . One of the gunwriters recently wrote they use a M25-5 with heavy loads quite often and those guys shoot their guns ALOT ! A few cylinders now and then would be fine....dewey

=================================
I have quite a few N frames and have only had one go a tad loose after 400 rounds or so of 300grainers at 1200 in a 629 4 inch.

Elmer Keith used his 255 g. at 1250 in the slim barreled 1950 Target .44SPL for years. It didn't have the modern steels we have,either.

=================================
 
I would not fire anything other than warmish .45 Colt loads through your Model 25. I asked Buffalo Bore about firing their heavy .45 Colt loads through my Model 625 Mountain Gun, and they replied that only the "weakest" of their loads was safe to use, as the others would batter the gun in short order. (BTW, their "weakest" load is still WAY hotter than standard .45 Colt stuff!)
 
Don't forget that most of the hot loads from the custom loaders are still within SAAMI specs. Compare them to .38 Special +P. They won't blow up a modern firearm in good condition but they will eventually shake the snot out of them.

Another case of people blaming the firearm for not being able to handle ammunition that didn't exist when it was designed.
 
If you are worried about Brownies, I'd suggest nothing smaller than a 12 gauge shotgun. If you insist on a 45 Colt, get a Ruger not a Smith. With the Rugers you can load the 45 to its potential.
 
Quote: "Don't forget that most of the hot loads from the custom loaders are still within SAAMI specs. Compare them to .38 Special +P."

Nope. SAAMI for .45 Colt is 14,000 psi. Cor-Bon, for instance, notes:

"This is NOT plinking ammo, this load should only be used in those guns that have the steel to handle the power. Guns in .45 COLT that are built on heavy duty frames, such as the Ruger, Freedom Arms, Colt Anaconda, and Thompson-Center Contender will handle this load with authority. This load is NOT intended for handguns such as older Smith & Wesson, Colt Single Action Army, or the Colt clones imported single action revolvers."

Funny, they don't mention NEW S&W..... but, these loads ARE NOT SAAMI spec.!!
 
But Cor-Bon doesn't print that on each and every individual cartridge do they?

What do you think their product liability would be if one or two of those rounds ended up in a Single Action Colt or a Uberti or a S&W 25-5? Do you think it would spontaniously dismantle it? Do you think Cor-Bon would let it leave the factory if it would?
If so, their warning would not say "This load is NOT intended for..." is would say This load is UNSAFE for.... You can bet their lawyers would insist on it.
 
Of course they don't print it on each cartridge, silly! :neener:

The point was that they do not comply with SAAMI pressure standards (no one is required to comply). I was not responding to the unasked question about liability, :) however, I personally see no problem with liability for some idiot using it in a gun that the company said don't use it in.
 
however, I personally see no problem with liability for some idiot using it in a gun that the company said don't use it in.
Click to expand...
MacDonald's never said not to pour hot coffee on yourself either, but look at what happened to them. When speaking of liability it seems the idiots are the only ones heard.
 
The M29 and the M25 are built on the same "N" frame, but 1) we don't know if the heat treatment & steel alloy are identical, and 2) in order to fit the .45 Colt, metal is removed. What's left under the cylinder notches isn't very thick.

Pushing an M25 by using hot rifle loads isn't the way to go, IMHO. And loading differently for the rifle and pistol - but keeping the same cartridge - would make things harder to keep track of than keeping both .45 LC and .44 Mag ammo. With more potential for problems.

If I wanted an "N" frame revolver for bear defense, and I were getting a new gun, I'd just get a M29/M629. I'd look for a used one with the durability upgrades but without MIM parts or the internal lock. :barf:
 
John Linebaugh says;
It may surprise many but the cylinder on the S&W .45 Colt is the same diameter as the Ruger Blackhawk. The webs (between chambers) and outside chamber wall are also the same. So basically the Ruger and S&W cylinders are identical in strength and dimension. We recommend handloads for the Rugers single action in .45 Colt caliber to 32,000 PSI levels.

While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake. I don't know how long it takes to wreck a N frame S&W with heavy handloads but Jeff Cooper printed one time he saw a model 29 go out in the realm of 1,000 hot handloads if I remember correctly. I would agree that serious damage could be done in this amount of shooting with too heavy a handload.
Click to expand...
:neener:


Anyone here think that Cor-Bon is loaded to a higher pressure than 32,000 psi? :what:
Notice also that the Cor-Bon disclaimer says, "older Smith & Wesson" (italics added)
 
Does anybody know when the oft-quoted Linebaugh article referenced above in several posts was written? Is the cylinder smaller on the S&W mountain guns? Has the cylinder gotten bigger on Blackhawks?

The reason I'm asking is because I just measured the OD, web thickness and outside chamber walls of a 25-13 Mountain Gun cylinder (the model asked about by the original poster) and a new .45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk (plus a new .357 blackhawk for OD comparison). The cylinder dimensions are NOT the same, with the Ruger slightly larger in all areas (OD: 1.730" vs 1.712", Chamber wall: .076 vs .067", Web: .060 vs .052). As an interesting side note, the web between pairs of chambers on my Bisley varies from .060" to .067", while the 25-13 is a rock-steady .052 all the way around. Also, the .357 Blackhawk and the .45 Bisley had the same cylinder OD.
 
sitka,

I want to get a Model 25 and shoot heavier loads in it, too, but...you're asking for "Colt Magnum" loads. True, the .45 Colt can do it with less pressure than a .44 Magnum, but as mentioned, there is less steel in the cylinders of the Colt. ALSO- the Model 29 does not respond well to shooting heavy 300 grain loads.

OTOH, I think a 300 grain hard cast at about 800 fps would be great for the Model 25. Let me know if you load some up-I'd like some! :D

John
 
Corbon makes one heavy .45 Colt load designed for the 25-5. Observe.

I called Cor-Bon and asked; they told me they developed this load, a 335 grain bullet at 1050 feet per second, specifically for the 25-5 revolver. (It is not intended for older model 25s, Italian single action clones, or cartridge conversions of black powder revolvers, obviously.

I've put some of these through my 80s vintage 25-5. Stout enough for my taste. I wouldn't make these my everyday plinking load, but according to Cor-Bon and experienced reloaders I've talked to on this forum, the 25-5 is strong enough to handle this type of stuff.

The 300 grains at 1400 feet per second (like what Buffalo Bore makes), is Ruger/TC only, though. Use discretion.

Last year I e-mailed Buffalo Bore. They told me they're working on a low-pressure .45 Colt load that'll push a 250 grain bullet to about 1,000 feet per second, and still be safe in S&Ws and even Uberti single actions. (They've made a similar low-pressure .44 Special load). No details on when this'll be made available, though.
 
As far as the .45 Colt S&W Mountain Gun vs, the .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, I own one of each and love them both. My S&W shoots standard pressure ammo ONLY. No real need to hot rod this fine old cartridge for the purposes a 4" revolver is suited for. That means a softer expanding bullet for most defense against humans. Over penetration here is something to be avoided.
As far as big critters that are looking to make me into a chew toy, I want the heaviest hard cast bullet I can get and I want it packing all the power I can accurately shoot. The best way I know how to do this is a buck strong handgun like a Ruger, you pick the barrel length and configuration.
 
Georgia Arms will soon be offering an "enhanced performance" 260 grain JHP, with a Keith-style hardcast to follow soon.

I don't have exact specs, but I was told today that it would be in the neighborhood of 1,000 fps: perfect, in my book. :)

John
 
The frame is not the problem it's the the thickness of the cylinder walls when you bore those big .45 holes. Not much meat left. I think the factory has it right when they suggest standard pressure loads.
 
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