S&W Model 19... weak?

[Rock185]

cfullgraf, The forcing cone on mine didn't crack, but developed other issues my local gunsmith could no longer correct. I had Smith & Wesson overhaul it in '80. The only thing original on mine is the frame, side plate and rear sight. Like yours, mine has not been shot much since overhaul, and then mostly .38 Spcls.

 

[Monac]

My understanding is that Smith & Wesson introduced their L frame size in the early 1980's as a response to at least the perception of the problems with the use of 357 Magnum ammunition in K frame guns. This is pretty much the same thing as Palladan and wcwhitey say above. Now comes the less certain stuff:

I also understand that the L frame is very similar to the pre-war Colt Official Police frame size. Colt actually made two 6 shot 38 Special revolvers for a long time: the small frame Police Positive/Detective Special, and the medium frame Official Police.

The reason that the K frame had trouble with 357 Magnum and the Colt Official Police did not was because the K frame was designed around the 38 Special cartridge. Colt designed the predecessor of the Official Police, the Army Special around a now long-gone cartridge called 41 Long Colt. The switch from Army Special to Official Police was a change in name only, for marketing purposes, with no significant change to the gun.

41 Long Colt, confusingly did not use 41 or even a 40 caliber bullets, but .386 inch, whereas 38 Special and its descendant, the 357 Magnum used .357 inch (hence the name, obviously). This .029 difference resulted, of course, in a slightly larger gun than the K frame, but apparently that was enough to make a significant difference in durability when both guns were offered in 357 Magnum.

The renowned Colt Python is an Official Police at heart. And the S&W L frame is more or less the same size, although the internal mechanism is entirely different, so it is a very different gun elsewise.

Well, I think I have created enough opportunities for people to set me straight for one post.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Picture is worth 1000 words department:

There is nothing 'weak' about a Model 19, or any other K frame 357 Magnum revolver. They do have an achilles heel though.

Ever since 1905, all K frame S&W revolvers have had a slight flat on the bottom of the forcing cone. The flat is there to clear the gas ring on the front of the cylinder. Ever since 1905. The revolver in this photo is a K-38 that left the factory in 1950. As can be seen in this photo, the slight flat on the bottom of the forcing cone means the metal is slightly thinner at the very bottom of the forcing cone. With standard 38 Special ammunition his was never a problem.






When the 357 Magnum cartridge was first developed in 1935, it was chambered in a much larger N frame revolver. This is a N frame Model 28, chambered for 357 Magnum. As can be seen, the barrel diameter is massive, and there is no flat on the bottom of the forcing cone because the gas ring on the cylinder is a little bit further away from the outside of the cylinder. It may not be obvious in these two photos, but the hole down the center of both of these revolver barrels is the same size. Anyway, with N frame 357 Magnum revolvers like this, split forcing cones was never a problem because the forcing cone is so massive.






N frame revolvers are big and heavy. They can be tiring for a police officer to carry all day long, at least back when policemen carried revolvers. In 1955 at the urging of well known gun writer and border patrolman Bill Jordan, Smith and Wesson built their first 357 Combat Magnum on the smaller, K fame. In 1957 when S&W went to a model number system, the 357 Combat Magnum became the Model 19.



Here is the forcing cone on my Model 19-3 that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975. Yes, there is a slight flat on the bottom of the forcing cone, for the same reason it has always been on the K frame 38s, to clear the gas ring at the center of the cylinder. The actual dimension of the flat varies slightly depending when the revolver was made. My Model 19-3 has spent most of its life firing standard 38 Special ammo, I don't put much 357 through it. Don't really care for the muzzle blast. So far my Model 19 is 46 years old, and everything is still fine, knock on wood. For full house 357 Magnum ammo I prefer an N frame revolver anyway, the heavier revolver eats up the recoil better.






L frame revolvers were developed specifically to address this situation. The cylinder is slightly larger in diameter than a K frame cylinder, and the frame is slightly larger to accommodate the slightly larger cylinder. By making the cylinder slightly larger in diameter, there was enough space for the gas ring that no clearance cut was needed on the bottom of the forcing cone. This is a relatively new L frame 357 Magnum Model 686. Notice there is no flat on the bottom of the forcing cone. The L frame is only slightly larger than a K frame, and has the same grip shape as a K frame. It is considerably smaller than an N frame, so not as heavy to carry all day.

 

[mnrivrat]

I put at least 10,000 rounds down the barrel of my M19 over a three year period with absolutely no issues. OK, many of those were not hot loadings , and all were my home cast 160 gr SWC, Most of the hotter loadings were the same home cast bullets gas checked full house magnum loadings. I don't consider the M19 weak. I have owned three of them and put thousand of rounds down range without damage. My 6 inch is now owned by my brother and going strong. I bought it used in the early 70's.
Yes, I have heard of cracked forcing cones shooting a steady diet of full magnum 125 gr Jacketed. No need to do that in my opinion.

 

[ThomasT]

I believe the L (example 586) frame came out to balance the rigidity and durability of the N frame (example Model 27) and the lighter weight and smaller size of the K frame (example, Model 19)

The L-Frame would have been the best of the best if they had of left that useless underlug off the barrel and helped keep the weight down. But everything else about the gun was pure perfection and the top of the class for a 357 revolver.

 

[Tinman357]

◇◇Agreed. I had the lug milled off my 4" 686. Much better. Balance and "pointability" much improved.

 

[ThomasT]

◇◇Agreed. I had the lug milled off my 4" 686. Much better. Balance and "pointability" much improved.

Thats sounds great. Pictures would be nice.

 

[Palladan44]

They initially made the 586s with the lug, probably to soak up some recoil and muzzle jump. And it does help with full house loads. And since the revolver sold so well, morphed into the 686 arguably the best selling revolver series of all time, they probably didnt want to change it as long as it sold well. And it still sells well today.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I suppose that is the logic for the full length underlug, but I still think they are ugly.

I much prefer the half length shroud under the barrel of the classics, such as my Model 19-3 over the ugly underlug of this Model 686-6.

 

[AustinTX]

I like full underlugs on some revolvers (Korths, Pythons), but I hate them on any S&W.

 

[fxvr5]

Here's an L-frame without all that weight up front:



https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-686

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Does anyone ever shoot any handgun a steady diet of .357 Magnum?

I've shot a gazillion rounds of .38 Special at medium (ICORE) and PPC (light) loads in competition. I have tried a few "pin" matches with full power .357 loads! Not a fun experience although effective!

I prefer the N Frames 45ACP for clearing the table!

Smiles,

My Ruger Blackhawk hasn't seen a .38 since I got it. Judging by the cyliner when I got it years back ,the previous owner never put a .38 in it either - no short-case rings. It's a hunting handgun. Not much use loading it with target ammo.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yep. That's almost all that's gone down the tube in my Ruger GP100 6". But I don't compete with it, so total round count is fairly low.

Edit to add: While the gun has not shot itself loose, the forcing cone face does have something like 50% erosion. I fired a lot of 125 grain JHPs through that gun before I learned not to.

Same for my Colt Lawman Mk.V - I only shoot .357's through it but I handload so a lot of those .357's were more like .38Spl +P or even a few grains less. It's only a 4" barrel made for close work so not much sense in using it as a flamethrower when a reasonable load will do the job just as well. It's taken a few pigs in its time. Quick handling little gun.

 

[Monac]

The L-Frame would have been the best of the best if they had of left that useless underlug off the barrel and helped keep the weight down. But everything else about the gun was pure perfection and the top of the class for a 357 revolver.

But the underlug made it more like a Python! And that's where the money was. Heck, back then, there was a small business in putting Python barrels on S&W revolvers. They were nicknamed "Smythons", I kid you not.

 

[Armored farmer]

heck, back then, there was a small business in putting Python barrels on S&W revolvers. They were nicknamed "Smythons", I kid you not.

Yes.
A ruger with a python barrel was known as Cuger. I fondled one at a gunshop once.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My understanding is that Smith & Wesson introduced their L frame size in the early 1980's as a response to at least the perception of the problems with the use of 357 Magnum ammunition in K frame guns. This is pretty much the same thing as Palladan and wcwhitey say above. Now comes the less certain stuff:

I also understand that the L frame is very similar to the pre-war Colt Official Police frame size. Colt actually made two 6 shot 38 Special revolvers for a long time: the small frame Police Positive/Detective Special, and the medium frame Official Police.

The reason that the K frame had trouble with 357 Magnum and the Colt Official Police did not was because the K frame was designed around the 38 Special cartridge. Colt designed the predecessor of the Official Police, the Army Special around a now long-gone cartridge called 41 Long Colt. The switch from Army Special to Official Police was a change in name only, for marketing purposes, with no significant change to the gun.

41 Long Colt, confusingly did not use 41 or even a 40 caliber bullets, but .386 inch, whereas 38 Special and its descendant, the 357 Magnum used .357 inch (hence the name, obviously). This .029 difference resulted, of course, in a slightly larger gun than the K frame, but apparently that was enough to make a significant difference in durability when both guns were offered in 357 Magnum.

The renowned Colt Python is an Official Police at heart. And the S&W L frame is more or less the same size, although the internal mechanism is entirely different, so it is a very different gun elsewise.

Well, I think I have created enough opportunities for people to set me straight for one post.

Nope, you're right on the target. From what I've read, there was a difference in market and metallurgy between the two, also. The S&W Hand Ejectors - what became the K-Frames, the 1902 and 1905 - were designed for civilians, mostly for police work; the Army was designed for military contracts. The frame size was designated by Colt as a "medium" frame, known inside the factory as the "Forty-One frame," since an earlier ancestor was chambered in that caliber, but the public often called it the Official Police or Officer's frame. The New Service was Colts large frame, which became their 1917.

 

[Monac]

Nope, you're right on the target. From what I've read, there was a difference in market and metallurgy between the two, also. The S&W Hand Ejectors - what became the K-Frames, the 1902 and 1905 - were designed for civilians, mostly for police work; the Army was designed for military contracts. The frame size was designated by Colt as a "medium" frame, known inside the factory as the "Forty-One frame," since an earlier ancestor was chambered in that caliber, but the public often called it the Official Police or Officer's frame. The New Service was Colts large frame, which became their 1917.

I am sorry to be argumentative or nitpicky, but another thing I thought I knew was that S&W was really hoping for a US military contract when they designed the K frame. That is why they based the 38 Special on the 38 Long Colt that the Army was using at the time, instead of their own 38 S&W round. And it's why they called it the "Military & Police" (names are just marketing wishes, though.)

But in the United States, the civilian market was much bigger than the military one, so you are correct, really.

 

[Bayou52]

For issues of the forcing cone as well as issues of end shake development, I refrain shooting magnums in my model 66-1.

Full charged magnums, on the other hand, are digested with relish in the 1984 vintage 357 Redhawk.

In fairness, though, these two models should not be compared against each other. They are essentially completely different animals.

Bayou52

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I am sorry to be argumentative or nitpicky, but another thing I thought I knew was that S&W was really hoping for a US military contract when they designed the K frame. That is why they based the 38 Special on the 38 Long Colt that the Army was using at the time, instead of their own 38 S&W round. And it's why they called it the "Military & Police" (names are just marketing wishes, though.)

But in the United States, the civilian market was much bigger than the military one, so you are correct, really.

I think post-Philippines EVERYBODY wanted a military contract but the military was still reeling from the fallout and didn't know what it wanted. The market was in policing post-Roosevelt and the NYC commission coming up with the idea of department-issue sidearms. I read a book by (I think) Leonard White years ago about the Progressive Era and military procurement. I need to find that book again.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

A Dan Wesson with their Heavy Vent Rib shroud was a Poor Man's Python. And given their reputation for accuracy....plus if you cracked a forcing cone, replacing it took about 2 minutes.

 

[Jim Watson]

Smith and Wesson has new versions of M19 and M66 redesigned to eliminate the flat spot.
So if you are not bothered by MIM, lock, and reports of indifferent quality, you can get a beefed up K frame Magnum.

Anecdote Alert: In the 1970s guy here tracked his M19 shooting and totaled 6000 rounds of full charge .357 Magnum handloads with 150 gr SWCs and no crack.

 

[ThomasT]

I think post-Philippines EVERYBODY wanted a military contract but the military was still reeling from the fallout and didn't know what it wanted. The market was in policing post-Roosevelt and the NYC commission coming up with the idea of department-issue sidearms. I read a book by (I think) Leonard White years ago about the Progressive Era and military procurement. I need to find that book again.

Colt and S&W probably made far more money selling 38 caliber guns to police departs through almost all of the 20th century than they would have ever made with military contracts. And was probably able to charge a little more per unit with the police revolvers. The military was moving more toward semi autos by then anyway. But they did buy their share of revolvers.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Colt and S&W probably made far more money selling 38 caliber guns to police departs through almost all of the 20th century than they would have ever made with military contracts.

In 1927, Colt changed the name of the Army Special, which they had been producing since 1908, to Official Police, to attract more civilian police sales. Same gun, different name.

 

[Jonesy814]

I am sorry to be argumentative or nitpicky, but another thing I thought I knew was that S&W was really hoping for a US military contract when they designed the K frame. That is why they based the 38 Special on the 38 Long Colt that the Army was using at the time, instead of their own 38 S&W round. And it's why they called it the "Military & Police" (names are just marketing wishes, though.)

But in the United States, the civilian market was much bigger than the military one, so you are correct, really.

They sold a boat load of M&P revolvers during WW2, somewhere just over a million

 

[Snake Plisskin]

Can't go wrong with the Model 19 it's a workhorse and a pleasure to shoot...!!!!