S&W Model M&P15 - MOE - Black

[Texas Knight]

Hey all I'm thinking about buying the S&W Model M&P15 - MOE - Black. Has anyone had a chance to fire one that can give me any feedback? I'm very comfortable with ARs since I'm in the Army and used to sell guns for Academy Sports, but I haven't run into anyone who's had a chance to play with one of these http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TonyAngel]

I've shot 'em. Nothing special. They shoot just like any other AR15. How much are you getting it for?

My only gripes about that rifle are that I prefer a mid length gas system because they shoot smoother and I prefer a 1:7 twist so that I can shoot the heavier 77gr projectiles.

 

[mshootnit]

I liked the one I had but sold it. It had real tight lockup on the pins. Finish was nice. Trigger was awful. Replaced with a McCormick single stage which was nicer but not what I expected for the money. It was not quite as accurate at my Bushy ORC. But it was a good shooter. Also I think that one had a little tighter mag well or something, it would not cycle with a cheap 20 round mag I had, while my Bushy and Armalite would. If it were me I would go with the Bushy ORC if you plan to use optics.

 

[Texas Knight]

Thanks for the feedback. That really changes my mind. I was also looking at the Sig556 classic swat http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sig556-classic-swat.aspx any comments on it?

 

[The Watchman]

I bought the m&p 15 MOE but in the dark earth version. Same exact rifle you are talking about just a different color. I got it a couple weeks ago and have only taken it to the long range once. I put just about every shot within the 8" ring in the target at 100 yards using the factory sights. That was standing up not at benchrest. I don't know if that's considered good but I thought it was. This is my first AR so I don't have anything to compare it to but I'm very happy with with and don't have any regrets.

 

[TonyAngel]

Hey Knight, the best advise that I can give you is to stick with an AR platform. If for no other reason than the availability of parts.

If you're looking to spend something around or just over $1K, I'd say look at Colt and Daniel Defense. For something just under, Spike's or Bravo Company.

I'm just saying this because it appears that you're willing to spend the money for what you want, so why not just quit messing around and get something good.

 

[Al Thompson]

S&W had some early teething issues. Several years back, S&W changed things up and now they are rated by Pat Rogers as good to go. Pat was one of the first to kick S&W in the slats when they were building sub-standard ARs.

So, that's a pretty ringing endorsement.

FWIW, I agree with Tony as usual. If you are willing to bump your budget up, the brands he mentioned are great.

 

[Texas Knight]

Thanks guys. Tony I'm going check out those you mentioned, that being said I'm not a huge colt AR fan due to some bad experiences with them in the Army. Which models do you recommend for the Daniel Defense? What do you think of bushmaster?

 

[Patriotme]

I have 3 AR's. A Bushmaster, A S&W M&P 15 MOE and a build (CNMG lower and parts kit, BCM upper and BCG, Magpul eqipment, etc.). The S&W is my favourite and is the most accurate. I know it's heresy to say anything bad about BCM but this upper is the least accurate of the 3. The S&W is the most accurate.
The S&W has a very good fit and finish. It has a mediocre trigger. It's been flawless in regards to reliability and I shoot a lot of steel cased ammo through it. I've probably tried about 7 different brands of ammo and have had no issues. I have 5 different brands of mags and they all work well in this gun and drop free. The early S&W's had problems with Magpul Pmags not fitting well but I've had no issues and most of my magazines are Pmags.
I have nothing bad to say about this rifle and while there are probably better rifles out there for a simliar price I am satisfied with the S&W. I have a Geissele SSA in my build and will probably put one in my S&W eventually. Everything else is GTG.

 

[TonyAngel]

Hey Knight, just for purposes of disclosure, I have to admit that I haven't bought an AR in quite some time. Not since I learned how to put them together and get good results. What I'm saying is just based on what I would do, if I was in the market to buy a complete rifle.

Bushmaster is a good brand. If I had a chance to get into a new one for $500 or so, I'd be stupid to pass it up. At their retail price, there is just better available for the same money. The Bushmaster is going to have a run of the mill 1:9 twist barrel. Commercial spec buffer tube. The bolt may or may not be MP and HP tested, since they don't test every one. As far as I know, Bushmaster doesn't have a carbine with a mid length gas system yet.

The Daniel Defense is going to be full milspec with a MP and HP tested bolt and barrel. The barrel will be hammer forged and you'll be able to get a 16" with mid length gas system. It's going to have a milspec buffer tube, blah, blah, blah.

As for which DD to get. Get some model with a 16" barrel and mid length gas system. That's about as specific as I can get. Choose the one that's purdiest to you. I remember when I had my first exposure to a DD rifle. My cousin bought one and I ragged him for it. He paid like $1200 for it. After having handled the rifle, I became a believer. Although I haven't bought any DD rifles, I have used a lot of their parts in my builds and they are top notch.

 

[Al Thompson]

Bushmaster is a good brand. If I had a chance to get into a new one for $500

TK, that's a clue as the cops say. Bushmaster is simply not up to speed on actually building rifles for serious shooting. And with the Maine facility being closed, I'm *really* leery of buying new.

S&W is in the same price range with better rifles. FWIW, I have no Smiths and no Bushmasters. All my ARs are mixmasters.

 

[ugaarguy]

TK, S&W has two new M&P15 models, the Sport, and the new version of the M&P15T (SKU: 811041).

The Sport comes with handguards that lack heat shields, so factor in $20 or so plus shipping to replace them with shielded handguards. The Sport also lacks a dust cover & forward assist, and is the only M&P series rifle to do so, but you've used M16s / M4s so you can evaluate the necessity (or lack thereof) of those two items yourself. At $600 or so street price it's still the best buy on a budget rifle.

The new 15T has the same Troy quad rail as the old one, but has switched from the expensive Troy back up irons to the more economical (but still very high quality) MagPul MBUS back up sights. The new 15T is selling for under $1000, which makes it the only other strong value from S&W right now.

The kicker is that these two models use S&W's new Melonited 1:8 twist 5R rifled barrels. The 1:8 5R rifling is showing itself to be very accurate with just about any bullet weight you can feed an AR. S&W's Melonite (aka Black Nitride) is done by the same contractor that does LWRC's Black Nitride. This is a surface hardening process which produces a very hard, slick, durable part. LWRC claims their testing has shown Black Nitride barrels to be more durable than hard chromed. Because you don't have to overbore and build back up to correct bore diameter as is done with hard chroming, you eliminate potential accuracy loss by Nitriding.

S&W individually HPT / MPI each bolt, uses the mil spec buffer tube (instead of the weaker commercial type), and they properly torque & stake everything. In short, they assemble all the M&P15 rifles like the big guys do.

They don't HPT / MPI their barrels, but the bolt is the far more critical part to do this on. They also use 4140 steel on their barrels rather than 4150, but in a semi auto this isn't really critical. Because they make a very good bbl, assemble the whole rifle correctly, and only cut cost in non critical areas, the M&P15 rifles can still be run hard like the top names.

As for Daniel Defense, I currently own a DDM4 v1. I've owned Colt, LMT, Noveske, and some lesser brands. The DD is just behind Noveske for the nicest out of the box, ready to go AR I've owned. I'd buy DD again in the $1000 to $1200 price range before buying a Colt or LMT in the $900 - $1100 range. Not by much, but it still would be my choice. The key differences in the DD rifle versions are carbine or mid length gas, fore end (M4 handguards, various DD quad rail types, or DD tube with modular rail attachment), and standard M4 contour bbl or lightweight bbl. The core of their rifles is the same throughout the lineup. They're all great quality, so just pick the version that best suits your wants / needs.

If you can't get a DD, then LMT is still an excellent option. I also purchased an M&P15 Sport as a good quality, low cost backup to the DD. Or so I thought. After a handguard upgrade, and shooting the Sport more I realized what a bargain it is. It's not a DD, but it's amazing how well it compares at several hundred $ less.

Hopefully this long winded post was helpful & informative.

 

[sargents1]

... What do you think of bushmaster?

From what I understand about Bushmaster, they have had some quality issues in recent years since they were bought out (Freedom Group. Same outfit that now owns DPMS, Remington, Marlin et all).

If you want a new rifle from the folks that made Bushmaster great, you should check out Windham Weaponry. I was just at the local gunshop in Poland and got to check out a new WW AR carbine. It was pretty nice and not super expensive (about 950$).

Richard Dyke, the fellow that founded Bushmaster signed a non-compete agreement when he sold Bushmaster. Then a year or so back Freedom Group decided to move production out of Maine and lay off a bunch of folks. Well, Mr Richard Dyke decided that that BS wasnt going to fly and as soon as his Non-compete expired, he rounded up some investors and bought back his now-idle bushmaster factory and is now cranking out new rifles with most of the folks that ran bushmaster when they were making a good product.

Of course, I am biased, I live in Maine...

 

[Tirod]

In the mid range AR market, there's a lot of fans of each make, and an equal number of detractors. Most will give adequate service.

I built my own, which I'm not suggesting. It takes time bargain hunting and researching, plus buying one built is cheaper right now, just like buying a new car assembled is cheaper than paying retail for 20,000 parts separately over the counter.

Going into to it two years ago, I researched everybody, and if I was buying new - from the perspective of a 22 year Retired Reservist, I'd get a Spike's. They have great quality and don't gouge on pricing. Yes, Colt does come to mind, a recent bid was disclosed as under $600 a unit. There's profit in them gummint contracts - until they own the data package, and then competition has to be met head on.

Some push milspec as the yardstick of comparison, it's a nice baseline, but when you're personal specs are for a nitrided barrel, bolt, and carrier in 6.8SPC, milspec is low grade. Don't let that military standard hold you back. Most Euro battle rifles are hammerforged nitrided, have been since the 1970's, and the general consensus is that they run 1MOA, not milspec 2MOA.

We're behind again to accommodate American business, just like radial tires or halogen headlights. The old tech was kept standard until corporations could comfortably change, then they "approved" the new standards thru the oversight boards they sit on with the DOT. Same for Colt. Don't let the milspec be more than a guideline, understand the tech behind it and why it's just contract standards to keep the taxpayer from being cheated.

Don't mean it's leading edge tech at all. All the new battle rifles aren't dropforged CNC aluminum, either - polycast lower and extruded upper are standard now. Once an Improved Infantry Rifle is approved, the new TDP and specs will govern. And the AR will continue to pass into the ranks of C&R's. M16's built semi auto by Colt are just a few years away from mailorder delivery to your doorstep.

Milspec ain't about being current if it's the same spec from the Garand. They got chrome bores a long time ago.

Look for the best value for the dollar. Spikes does that.

 

[nra-for-life]

i have an s&w mp 15 that i won about 2 months ago (at a duck hunting banquet). i have taken it out and shot it at 100 yards. i stuck a bushnell 4x12 elite 3200 on it for now (temporarily) just to do some preliminary shooting. off a bench it is producing 6" groups with the cheapest factory ammo you can get (100 yards). i have probably put about 300 or so rounds through it and have had no cycling issues. imo it is as good as any factory AR out there in its price catagory. id expect quality handloads would reduce the groups some, but if you want to produce moa or sub moa groups, the rifle will need work.

 

[LetFreedomReign]

I find it extremely ironic that Magpul would choose or allow S&W to design the MOE considering the terrible fit of the p-mags in initial lots of their M&P AR-15's. I have one of these weapons and the p-mags don't work very well at all. You literally have to hold the mag release button to insert the mag. Long before everyone was going to the p-mag, I had been using the Israeli made "Orlite" mag and I, to this day, find it far suppior to the p-mag. I am sure that this comment is going to ruffle some feathers but even my Bushy which Orlite advertises that they will not fit has no problem excepting the Orlite. But I have had occasional issues with the p-mag in my Bushy. All my other AR's will except the p-mag without exception but what is the point in stocking mags that will not fit all your guns? I prefer Orlite hands down! I also use Orlite in my AK-47 as well. I do love the Magpul MOE stock though.

 

[G27RR]

No problems with Magpul mags in either of my S&W ARs. No probems of any kind, for that matter.

 

[doubleh]

I am not an AR "expert" as I own only one and just purchased it early this year. I got the S&W M&P OR as I never intend to use any other sight than a scope. I also wanted a light rifle as this is a coyote gun. It is giving minute of angle accuracy with my handloads and has had no malfunctions at all. I'm a happy camper.

My son in law purchased a S&W also. I can't remember the letter designation but it's the same as the OR only it has a pinned stock and came with removable sights. No malfunctions at all with it either.

I'm happy with my S&W.

 

[mdauben]

I find it extremely ironic that Magpul would choose or allow S&W to design the MOE considering the terrible fit of the p-mags in initial lots of their M&P AR-15's.

Money talks. I'm sure that they have no objections to S&W buying up their products to package with those M&P rifles. In any case, my current production 15 Sport has had no problem with pmags in the couple hundred rounds I've put through the gun so far.

 

[ugaarguy]

I find it extremely ironic that Magpul would choose or allow S&W to design the MOE considering the terrible fit of the p-mags in initial lots of their M&P AR-15's

You do know that first batch of M&P15 rifles has Stag receivers don't you? That's why S&W moved everything in house. Where did you read that S&W designed MagPul's MOE furniture? My understanding is that MagPul designed it to sell to AR makers as their Original Equipment instead of the standard AR / M4 style furniture. Hence the name - MagPul Original Equipment - MOE.