Highland Ranger
Member
Looks like the Performance Center reduced the number of available products from 4 pages to 2 - are they just posting 2004 items or are they reducing the number of PC guns that will be available in the future?
S&W Performance Center - reduced offering?
- Thread starter Highland Ranger
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Josey
member
A unsubstantiated rumour is that S&W is dropping/discontinuing models across the board. PC is being cut back to a bare minimum. S&W may be reducing revolvers to a absolute minimum. They are still hurting from their Hertage line ups lack of sales. That is why the Schofield line was dropped. The new S&W is in business to sell, not to cater to whims.
farscott
Member
Do not know the reason why, but it appears that S&W is dropping a few models to focus on the lightweight carry cannons. I noticed that the M342 (both regular and PD versions) is discontinued, but the M340 is still in the catalog. The M25 is still listed, but I suspect that it will be gone once the current production run is complete. The M327, M329, M360, M396, M625-10, and M4040PD are in the catalog as well as the M317 and the new M351. It appears the market is demanding lightweight carry guns, both revolvers and autos, and S&W is trying to meet the demand. Just glad to see the M617, M647, and M648 are still in the catalog
I do not understand why the Heritage line did not work for S&W since it worked for Colt. My best guess is that Colt actually tried to recreate the exact M1911, M1911A1, and pre-Series 70 (though rollmarked "Series 70") while S&W made revolvers that were only reminscent of the older pieces.
I do not understand why the Heritage line did not work for S&W since it worked for Colt. My best guess is that Colt actually tried to recreate the exact M1911, M1911A1, and pre-Series 70 (though rollmarked "Series 70") while S&W made revolvers that were only reminscent of the older pieces.
LOL! Cause they were/are way overpriced *junk*. Not really too hard to figure out that one. All Smith had to do was a very tiny amount of research, then turn that into production and they would have had a winner.
Their Heritage line just managed to faintly resemble the originals. Where they fell flat (and why they're *junk*) was in the details.
Tamara
Senior Member
The only good thing that came out of the "Heritage Line" (a.k.a. "The Vaguely Old-Timey-Looking Line") was the batch of leftover "four screw" carbon steel N-frames that wound up getting turned into four screw Model 29 Mountain Guns. Yum. 
Tamara
Senior Member
Don't forget that, as the year goes by, various "stocking dealer specials" and "distributor limited editions" will be added to that section as well.
2003's official Performance Center offerings started out limited to the F-Comp, the 627, the 629 Light Hunter, the 945, and the 952.
farscott
Member
The Heritage line may have been overpriced; however, the line is/was not junk. I have one of the K-22 Masterpieces that were made, and it is an amazing revolver. Great shooter with awesome attention to detail and finish.
Tamara
Senior Member
Of course the Heritage Line was insanely expensive. You think Doug Turnbull case-colored all those frames for free? It would've been nice for one of the guys in marketing to take a second or two to check and see if old Smiths actually had case-colored frames or not, though. (Hey, Mr. Marketing Weenie, here's a hint: They didn't. 
)
)I think they put to much stock and faith in the "Buck Rogers" space age designs they came up with. Not many of them went over too well. As for the classic designs the PC puts out some folks swear by them, but I haven't seen anything worth the price difference they ask for over the standard catalogued model. Looks like you pay for an action tune, a pretty case, and prestigue for almost twice the price.
Swamprabbit
Member
I don't know about their Heritage line but my father did have an issue with a PC revolver he bought. He is well into his 70s now and his eyesight isn't/wasn't good enough to catch that the barrel was not indexed well at all. When you looked through the sights, the front sight looked like it would fall over. He sent it back to S&W PC and was told that it was in "spec" and didn't fix it. If S&W considers incorrect barrel indexing as in "spec" on their "Performance Center" lines, then no wonder people quit paying premium prices for "spec" guns.
Tamara
Senior Member
I think some folks are getting a little overwrought about what's been discontinued.
The Al/Ti J-frames are gone. They added a Sc/Ti .22 Magnum J-frame. The slow-selling .32 Mags are gone. They've returned a fixed-sight N-frame to the fold, however temporarily, and are apparently using up the rest of the "four screw" Heritage frames to make a run of nice, blued Model 25 Mountain Guns. The core guns (10, 36, 60, 66, 686, 629, et al) are still here, and oddballs like the 657 and 610 are still featured.
If you want to see a line that's been gutted, go look at the semiauto side of the house. Looks like Smith figured out what their core market is.
The Al/Ti J-frames are gone. They added a Sc/Ti .22 Magnum J-frame. The slow-selling .32 Mags are gone. They've returned a fixed-sight N-frame to the fold, however temporarily, and are apparently using up the rest of the "four screw" Heritage frames to make a run of nice, blued Model 25 Mountain Guns. The core guns (10, 36, 60, 66, 686, 629, et al) are still here, and oddballs like the 657 and 610 are still featured.
If you want to see a line that's been gutted, go look at the semiauto side of the house. Looks like Smith figured out what their core market is.
Highland Ranger
Member
I have two PC guns - the 629 light hunter and the 329 PD.
They are both excellent pieces of craftsmanship, zero problems or issue with them. My thinking is, that if there is a particular weapon I want in their product line, I'll pay the extra few hundred bucks to get the performance center version for the extra features and the added quality that should be associated with a piece that is hand worked over by someone.
Soooooo, I posted the question because 2 weeks ago when I last looked at their site there were several pages of available choices and now we are down to just two.
Was hoping the answer was, they are cyclling in the old and getting ready to post all the PC 500 magnum snubbies they'll be offering . . . . but it seems not.
Who else besides Lew Horton has "unlisted" Performance Center pieces (like the 329 PD I got from them - on Lew's site, not on the S&W site)?
What is the perception of these "unofficial" (actually not because it is clearly marked PC) PC limited run guns Vs the "real" PC catalog items?
They are both excellent pieces of craftsmanship, zero problems or issue with them. My thinking is, that if there is a particular weapon I want in their product line, I'll pay the extra few hundred bucks to get the performance center version for the extra features and the added quality that should be associated with a piece that is hand worked over by someone.
Soooooo, I posted the question because 2 weeks ago when I last looked at their site there were several pages of available choices and now we are down to just two.
Was hoping the answer was, they are cyclling in the old and getting ready to post all the PC 500 magnum snubbies they'll be offering . . . . but it seems not.
Who else besides Lew Horton has "unlisted" Performance Center pieces (like the 329 PD I got from them - on Lew's site, not on the S&W site)?
What is the perception of these "unofficial" (actually not because it is clearly marked PC) PC limited run guns Vs the "real" PC catalog items?
SnWnMe
Member
I'm glad they're paring them down. Having a line of guns that rivals other manufacturers' entire product offering removes the element of exclusivity.
I love my PC guns. I am sure that the 327 and the PC1911 will be nice.
I love my PC guns. I am sure that the 327 and the PC1911 will be nice.
Scott,
Maybe *junk* isn't the right term to use. No offence intended. Fact is though, you don't have a K 22 Masterpiece if it's one of the Heritage Models. It may be a fine shooter, and it may be a fine looker, It isn't a K22 masterpiece though. It's an unfaithful recreation of ,,,really nothing. A good detailed reproduction would have a square frame, pinned and recessed and deep blue and wonderful "Smith" trigger....
Kinda like the pristine $375 Model 17 I bought.
And yes, FWIW I looked at the Heritage madel and dismissed it. If I wanted a round frame non pinned - with a mediocre trigger,, I would have bought a 617.... come to think of it I did buy a 617....that one really WAS junk.
farscott
Member
Hal,
In addition to my M17-8, I also have two "real" K-22 Masterpieces, one from 1948 and one from 1956. The "Heritage" model, while not historically accurate, feels like a K-22 Masterpiece when it is shot. If the proof is indeed in the shooting, the M17-8 is a K-22 Masterpiece. I can shoot the M17-8 as well as my K-22's. and it balances just like the K-22. The balance of the M17-8 is identical to the K-22, probably due to the lack of a full lug.
The round-butt, which is the most glaring discrepancy, is not apparent when shooting. The trigger in my sample (after some minor home 'smithing) is the equal of the 1948 example, but it is not the equal of the 1956 example. The bluing of my "real" K-22's is worn, so I will not compare it to the bluing on the M17-8.
It may not look right, but it sure shoots right. In the end, the shooting is what matters to me. I wanted a modern K-frame .22 LR without a full-lug barrel, and S&W delivered.
[eta] Corrected model number from 17-10 to 17-8. Guess my eyes are really getting bad.
In addition to my M17-8, I also have two "real" K-22 Masterpieces, one from 1948 and one from 1956. The "Heritage" model, while not historically accurate, feels like a K-22 Masterpiece when it is shot. If the proof is indeed in the shooting, the M17-8 is a K-22 Masterpiece. I can shoot the M17-8 as well as my K-22's. and it balances just like the K-22. The balance of the M17-8 is identical to the K-22, probably due to the lack of a full lug.
The round-butt, which is the most glaring discrepancy, is not apparent when shooting. The trigger in my sample (after some minor home 'smithing) is the equal of the 1948 example, but it is not the equal of the 1956 example. The bluing of my "real" K-22's is worn, so I will not compare it to the bluing on the M17-8.
It may not look right, but it sure shoots right. In the end, the shooting is what matters to me. I wanted a modern K-frame .22 LR without a full-lug barrel, and S&W delivered.
[eta] Corrected model number from 17-10 to 17-8. Guess my eyes are really getting bad.
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Tamara
Senior Member
Highland Ranger,
Bangers & RSR, among others. Then there are "stocking dealer specials", like the recent 646 and 5" half-lugged 686. (Not Performance Center guns, but largely unmentioned in company literature.)
Bangers & RSR, among others. Then there are "stocking dealer specials", like the recent 646 and 5" half-lugged 686. (Not Performance Center guns, but largely unmentioned in company literature.)
Highland Ranger
Member
Tamara,
Are any of these orderable through the internet?
Reason I ask is, NJ gun shops are not known for their variety.
Case in point, when I bought the PC 629 - after deciding on the gun I figured I'd give some of the locals a chance. For the most part they quoted me straight S&W list price (in one case list plus 10%) to special order the gun.
Wound up ordering it through Davidson's for a fairer (for NJ) price - significantly less than the S&W list.
For comparison, I bought a USP Expert through Davidson's, not much of a discount from what I could see. Since then I've seen the gun advertised over the Davidson's list price at two NJ gun shops.
Scott,
No argument friend. You got what you wanted, and I didn't see what I wanted in the Heritage line. One mans *junk* is another man's treasure.
While I don't consider it a "real" K22 Masterpiece it appears you got your money's worth out of it.
Long as they all go where you aim 'em that's what counts.
The forty-something opinion...
Well, mine anyway-
I am grossly PO'd at both Colt & S&W for the absurd departure from their flagship revolvers. Based on their current offerings, or lack thereof, I am limited to buying up all the old classics that I can afford. Unfortunately, this is far too few. So-
Colt-
Bring back the Detective Special frame- please. A six-shot steel framed .38 or .357 at this weight is just right.
Give us a good-quality working man's .357 DA again. You were getting there with the Trooper III's... you were SO close.
Wanna do something really cool? Bring back the New Service, in modern steel and with a slicker action.
And please- if you're gonna make the Single Action Army and charge three prices for it, make it better than guns I can buy for a third of the price.
S&W-
Ditch the locks. It's a DA revolver for crying out loud! If I'm gonna shoot myself with THAT, I'm a pretty determined individual.
If you're gonna make guns out of Fantazium, or whatever- make the damn things all one color! What you're cranking out now looks like it ought to have a ring of those little red plastic caps loaded into it.
Remember Bill Jordan? Skeeter Skelton? Elmer Keith? Next time you design a space-revolver, ask yourself just what one of these guys might have had to tell you about it behind closed doors. Then decide.
Make us some nice revolvers like you used to make, and sneak the CNC machining and endurance upgrades in well enough that I have to look for them.
Taurus-
Quality , not quantity. You make some very cool stuff- now all you have to do is make it right.
And everybody? I want NICKEL , genuine, shiny, high-gloss blue and NICKEL again. I want guns with FIXED sights, too- regulated to hit spot-on for windage, and a tad low with the heaviest bullet weights. I know how to work a file. Make that front sight easily replaceable too, so I can have one for a couple of loads.
Sorry, folks. Had to vent a little.
Well, mine anyway-
I am grossly PO'd at both Colt & S&W for the absurd departure from their flagship revolvers. Based on their current offerings, or lack thereof, I am limited to buying up all the old classics that I can afford. Unfortunately, this is far too few. So-
Colt-
Bring back the Detective Special frame- please. A six-shot steel framed .38 or .357 at this weight is just right.
Give us a good-quality working man's .357 DA again. You were getting there with the Trooper III's... you were SO close.
Wanna do something really cool? Bring back the New Service, in modern steel and with a slicker action.
And please- if you're gonna make the Single Action Army and charge three prices for it, make it better than guns I can buy for a third of the price.
S&W-
Ditch the locks. It's a DA revolver for crying out loud! If I'm gonna shoot myself with THAT, I'm a pretty determined individual.
If you're gonna make guns out of Fantazium, or whatever- make the damn things all one color! What you're cranking out now looks like it ought to have a ring of those little red plastic caps loaded into it.
Remember Bill Jordan? Skeeter Skelton? Elmer Keith? Next time you design a space-revolver, ask yourself just what one of these guys might have had to tell you about it behind closed doors. Then decide.
Make us some nice revolvers like you used to make, and sneak the CNC machining and endurance upgrades in well enough that I have to look for them.
Taurus-
Quality , not quantity. You make some very cool stuff- now all you have to do is make it right.
And everybody? I want NICKEL , genuine, shiny, high-gloss blue and NICKEL again. I want guns with FIXED sights, too- regulated to hit spot-on for windage, and a tad low with the heaviest bullet weights. I know how to work a file. Make that front sight easily replaceable too, so I can have one for a couple of loads.
Sorry, folks. Had to vent a little.
Big Man
Member
I am wondering if they will keep the new 8 shot 357 with the really ugly slanted underlug and the square barrel. I Like the gun...but it's so ugly. I fondeled one at the gunstore and it felt good. Nice and heavy, but they just killed the looks with that big slanted thing under it. And I dont like the description on the side of the barrel. "357 mag. 8 Times" C'mon Whats up with that. I can see it as a ccw maybe. At least you'd have a bunch of lead to throw at the hooligans.
Round Gun Shooter
Member
Believe it or not
The big push in the factory as of my visit there last Wednesday is the 500. They can not keep up with the orders for all barrel lengths. Never seen so many big frames.
As for the PC, they are marketing fewer models as standard so they can deliver on time. Many PC models are contract guns by either Bangers, Horton, RSR, or Camfour. Not always shown in the Catalog.
My tour of the factory with Roy Cuny gave me a new insight into the things to come. There are a lot of ideas in the making. The manufacturing process is being fine tuned and the product is coming out better due to closer inspections.
Items being dropped from the line will happen as interest goes. I still like blue guns, but there will probably never be full runs of them because of the expense in producing them and the actual sales show stainless as more popular.
It looks like the 1911 and the 500 are the big sellers right now and that shows in the factory. It was a real kick to see those 500s being assembled.
Regards,
The big push in the factory as of my visit there last Wednesday is the 500. They can not keep up with the orders for all barrel lengths. Never seen so many big frames.
As for the PC, they are marketing fewer models as standard so they can deliver on time. Many PC models are contract guns by either Bangers, Horton, RSR, or Camfour. Not always shown in the Catalog.
My tour of the factory with Roy Cuny gave me a new insight into the things to come. There are a lot of ideas in the making. The manufacturing process is being fine tuned and the product is coming out better due to closer inspections.
Items being dropped from the line will happen as interest goes. I still like blue guns, but there will probably never be full runs of them because of the expense in producing them and the actual sales show stainless as more popular.
It looks like the 1911 and the 500 are the big sellers right now and that shows in the factory. It was a real kick to see those 500s being assembled.
Regards,
I agree with the expense of producing them, but the sales resulted from the industry forcing the stainless models down the consumer's throat. Anything new came out in stainless. Those that produced choices put more stainless models on the shelves over the blued models. S&W and the other makers should wonder why the used market is booming in sales of their older models.
Tamara
Senior Member
No, not really. The 586 and 686 were sold side-by-side for years, with the 686 clobbering its blued sibling in sales. Ditto with the 19/66. Likewise the 29/629.
We revolver fiends may huddle on our little forums on the net and bemoan lost glories, then go scour gun shop shelves for Pinned & Recessed this, Five-Screw that, and Prewar the other, but Joe Public emphatically prefers stainless. (Note that Ruger and Colt and Taurus and Rossi are all in on the conspiracy...
)Believe me, it ain't 'cause gun companies prefer making guns out of more expensive, harder steel that eats tooling at a much greater rate.
Highland Ranger
Member
The stainless issue is pretty straightforward - gun that rusts Vs gun that doesn't.
And yes, I know stainless can rust . . . . but the perception out there is that buying stainless means buying something indestructible vs something that will rust and that I need to clean and be careful with.
Looks aside there should be no argument that stainless is a better material for a gun. Not surprising that the sales figures agree.
Now scandium, titanium and unobtainium, well . . . . that's another story
And yes, I know stainless can rust . . . . but the perception out there is that buying stainless means buying something indestructible vs something that will rust and that I need to clean and be careful with.
Looks aside there should be no argument that stainless is a better material for a gun. Not surprising that the sales figures agree.
Now scandium, titanium and unobtainium, well . . . . that's another story
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