S&W riding high

[Lone_Gunman]

Jim,

You asked for a first hand experience, and I asked Erich to indicate what happened. He recounted his story, and his story is the same every time he tells it.

I apologize to Erich for drawing him into this thread only to be bushwacked. You are all but calling him a liar with comments like "if the incident happened as you say". Of course it happened as he said, and to imply otherwise is insulting. Erich has no reason to be lying that I am aware of, and is only even participating in this thread because I stupidy private messaged him ask him to relay his personal experience to you, as you had requested.

Finally to chide him and call him irresponsible for selling the gun instead of sending it to S&W is a low blow. How do you know he did not make the purchaser aware of the problem? Maybe he sold it to a gunsmith. Maybe he didnt want to go to the trouble of boxing the gun up, carrying it to UPS, and sending it to S&W. Maybe the new owner was told of its problems, and didnt mind going to the trouble of sending it back if he got a good deal on it. I personally have bought several defective weapons on the cheap, and subsequently had them repaired.

I don't mean this disrespectfully to you. I just don't think you treated Erich fairly.

 

[Stainless Chili]

UGGG !!

I just had a horrible brain fart.

Liberals with locks on their minds.

"If we have put a satellite controlled car ignition lockout device,
why can't we have a satellite-controlled lockout on a gun?

That way we can control who uses them!"

It will make sense - to an insane person.

 

[454c]

Jim,I usually enjoy reading your post but,your post in this thread has me scratching my head.

Yes,there are many lock wars on the S&W forums.Try a search for "ILIF" or "internal lock induced failure".


Remington got the hint and dropped the locks.This would not have happened if customers had "get real,get a life","get over it" or "shut up".

 

[orionengnr]

Thank you, Jim

For your measured and logical response.
I have read sooo many posts saying that it is all an Internet myth, and that no evidence exists. It has been a while since I've reviewed this one:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/500103904/m/228102718

but there were (at last read) at least half a dozen credible first-hand accounts (along with the usual assortment of "replies"). Since then I have read of several others on different forums (including here and on THR) and I encouraged each to add his experience to the above tread. As I said, it has been a while since I've reviewed it.

As far as your statement about gun dealers denying the existence of a problem, I think that speaks more to the experience / motivation / integrity of the dealer than it does to the truth of the matter. I'm sure that many have no direct knowledge, some do but are in denial, and some just want to sell you something. (If you want to see some really heated exchanges, look further on the S&W forum.)


For me...I was new to revolvers about three years ago. I bought at least three before I was aware of The Lock. At a certain point I stumbled across a thread like this and started reading. Didn't stop me from buying two more, but the more I read, the less confident I am in Lock-equipped S&W revolvers for CCW. This resulted in the sale of two so far, and the likely future sale of the remainder at some point...

 

[mec]

that smith and wesson forum string is a good one and touches upon how to nobble the lock if you choose:


I am also glad that Smith and Wesson is prospering. their revolvers are very accurate and shootable. If I were to get one with a lock and planned to use it for anything more critical than target shooting, I would probably do something like the above. I do find the smith forum posts credible and Ayoob cites the owner of a New Hampshire indoor range who rents out guns for on premises use who had observed and documented several self- engagements.

 

[Erich]

Howdy,

I didn't send the gun back to S&W because it was working fine according to their design parameters. The problem wasn't that the lock was broken, it was that the poorly designed lock was there and was able to come out of its slot. Since the lock wasn't broken, there wasn't anything that S&W could do for me (short of removing the lock, which they wouldn't do) - so why call or write?

I traded the gun off because S&W sold it with the poorly designed lock onboard, and it was working perfectly within their design parameters. No ethical problem whatsoever - as many of you have indicated, lots of people are just fine with this design feature. (Your posts' tone on this somewhat disturbs me, Jim. I trust there's just a misperception of tone due to the difficulty of communicating through this written medium.)

While (as mec relates) I felt like a doofus for knocking the (unloaded!) gun off the counter, I got rid of it because I think this sort of impact is very much within the parameters of what a self-defense gun might have to experience (and yet still be able to function after experiencing!) in a real fight. I've done some force-on-force training with handguns, and I think any major f-o-f trainer (Lee at RBFC, Southnarc, Gabe Suarez) would agree with my conclusion that the amount of knocking around a gun may receive requires the thing to be durable.

Anyway, as I have always said, I hope everyone who wants to buy a S&W with the lock does so. I've shot a number of them, and they're very nice guns - but I don't like the lock adding a potential problem that could make it impossible to use the gun to defend myself.

 

[Birukun]

Picked it up today! SKU#109XXX

Internal lock - NO
Mag disconnect - YES

Can't wait to get to the range.....

Bill in SD



*Mod Note: Serial number obscured.

 

[Sam]

I'm with Erich on this one.
Have absolutely no reason to doubt his story. Been shooting with him a few times, reliable, has good friends(best eval of someone's character) and never tried to blow smoke up my backside.

Customers want me to remove the things and weld up the hole, but the liability is just too freaking high. My agent's anal orifice is puckered tight just because I'm responding to this thread.
Cut my income by a bundle because if I won't remove the lock they just don't get the other work done that they came for.

Da lock outperforms Shopvac, Kirby and Hoover.


Sam

 

[mec]

that signature line sounds like ayn rand.

 

[Jim K]

In other words, Erich is telling the truth because he is on the side of the angels (and against the LOCK) but all the gunsmiths and dealers I have spoken to are liars and crooks who are part of a conspiracy with the evil S&W.

Come now, fellas. With all due respect, this issue has gotten so out of hand that I find it hard to believe anything any more. I have tried to get the lock on a Model 60 to bend, twist, or anything else. I removed the grips and beat the gun unmercifully in every direction with a plastic mallet a lot harder than it could ever be hit in simply falling onto or off a table. The lock stayed where it was. I tried to get the lock to release under blows, or to set under blows, without success. I won't say that one single gun could not have had some kind of problem, but a design problem as widespread as claimed would certainly have happened to someone else.

In addition to the lock "problem", there were supposedly thousands of reports of S&W triggers and hammers breaking off. I asked the same questions at that time and could find no confirmation. Again, the story was almost invariably spread by folks with a passionate hatred of S&W for other reasons. As with lock failure, I can't say it never happened but it certainly didn't happen to the extent the ranters claimed. In fact, one gunsmith did show me an S&W hammer with the spur peeled off; it was not MIM, it was an old hammer.

Jim

 

[Lone_Gunman]

As with lock failure, I can't say it never happened but it certainly didn't happen to the extent the ranters claimed

I am confused by this statement, as I don't see where in this thread anyone has claimed that lock failure has occured in any great numbers. I suspect that lock failure incidents are extremely rare.

The point is that with a pre-lock Smith and Wesson, the risk of lock failure is zero, while with the post-lock guns, there is at least some marginal risk.

This risk is probably not significant, unless of course, you are the person whose gun locks up when you try to use it to save your life.

You asked for a first hand experience. I provided one to you in the form of Erich, and you still don't seem satisfied. In fact you were rather rude to Erich and implied that he might not be telling the truth, despite the fact that his story has never changed since he told it the first time.

By the way, not everyone who hates the locks also hates Smith and Wesson. I bought one of their 1911s about a year ago (which of course had no lock), and have been very pleased with it.

 

[Sam]

MEC,
That is a Rand quote. You have to take that oath to live in the gulch.

Mr. Keenan,
I do not know of your experiences with others concerning "the lock". I don't know you from diddly squat.

I do know that you have made a point of personally insulting someone that I respect and trust, and by extension, me.

I do not know what caused this rude, unjustified, contemptable behavior on your part, but do suggest that you examine your own motives and behavior.

It is however quite clear to me how you managed to generate a death threat over the issue.
Me I own a hundred SWB. I bought it based on my faith in an american company's ability to succeed after after throwing off the yoke of England. I bought when it didn't look so good. When it had fallen to 25% of issue value.
I want S&W to win, and win big. They aren't going to do it with the lock or your backing.

Sam

 

[tegemu]

My relatively new Smith & Wesson 1911, a Scandium Commander has NO external locks on it. If there are I haven't a clue where they would be. Now it did come with a cable, bicycle like, lock as do most guns these days.

 

[Justin]

Enough.