Sad realization about M1A's...

[wayne in boca]

All your M14 are belong to me.

 

[cwmcgu2]

(Thoughts while reading first post) "hmmmm, ok, uh-huh, uhhh, huh?.... whatever, I still want a Socom II !"

 

[razorburn]

It seems now after reading the op the ar-10, ptr-91, maybe even the .308 saiga seem like they'll do everything the m1a will do at a lower cost, with benefits of either increased accuracy or durability.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

I guess mine must be broken. It does not seem to suffer all the terrible problems that it should.
Course, mine is not bedded, as a battle rifle is not likely to be designed with that in mind.

 

[MechAg94]

AK103's slam fire experience appears to be related to single loading a round and then letting the bolt slam forward. I have heard that isn't the best thing to do with any rifle with a free-floating firing pin. M1's and M1A's make it very easy to let the bolt down slowly.

Nearly 100% of these complaints don't apply to me and my standard M1A. Seems like a bunch of minor complaints exaggerated to the point of absurdity.

I have owned, fired, and been around several M14 clones and have NEVER seen one that beats up brass. I have had my M1A double fire, but never heard of a slam fire. Also, I don't see FAL's or HK91's that are any more accurate or that don't have their own issues to deal with.

 

[AK103K]

I grew up shooting the M1 and M14. We were taught to single load the M1 by slipping a round into the chamber and letting the bolt go. Everyone I ever shot them with did it. I had never even heard of a SLED until after my gun blew up. I use one now with my M1, and as MechAg94 said, it is very easy to let the bolt down easy and push it closed, and I do, and highly reccomend you do the same, especially if your using reloads.

I have owned, fired, and been around several M14 clones and have NEVER seen one that beats up brass. I have had my M1A double fire, but never heard of a slam fire. Also, I don't see FAL's or HK91's that are any more accurate or that don't have their own issues to deal with.

If your shooting an M1 or a M1A and you start getting doubles, I would stop shooing immediately and find out why. The first thing I'd look at was my brass and go from there.

As for the 91 and FAL, I have yet to see a FAL that will shoot up to an M1A, the 91 will give it a good run for the money if your using comparable rifles for the comparison. I always thought the 91 had the best, all around combat iron sights going. The M1A's are the better "target" sight.

 

[ALS]

Yeh don't buy one they are real pieces of junk from the start.
I have over 7,000 rounds through my Springfield M1A Supermatch. I had it tuned up last year and was told that I should look at re-barreling her in the spring. They had to replace the extractor, firing pin, replaced the sear in the trigger assembly and re-set the trigger weight to bring it up to spec.
I asked about re-bedding the gun while it was there. They decided to not re-bed the gun since the action and stock were still quite tight. This gun I bought new back in 1988.

 

[30Cal]

Where I feel a significant issue remains is that the rifle has a documented history of blowing up because of high primers. Something that many/most rifles don't do. Something being outright unsafe unless all primers are countersunk doesn't bode well.

I think you are confusing a slamfire with an out-of-battery discharge. Slamfires do happen on blue moons. The rifle goes bang when it's not supposed to.

An out-of-battery discharge is where the rifle goes off before the bolt is fully shut. The bolt/hammer/safety bridge design has redundant features to prevent this from occurring (safety bridge and hammer spur forces bolt shut).

Ty

 

[MrDig]

What you mean there are flaws in the design? you mean to tell me that I can"t put a round up a gnats backside at 1000 meters on a factory rifle? Shame on them shame on all who own them, what a travesty of commerce, justice and the American Way.

Give me a break these are excelent rifles and for you to nit pick as you have is to ask for a brass toilet and then complain that the TP isn't guilded.

 

[amprecon]

wayne in boca <------ that was funny, LMAO, no cheet maing, you guize don lahk jur aim wunaize, 'and em over . We will lahk dem for ju.

 

[MechAg94]

If your shooting an M1 or a M1A and you start getting doubles, I would stop shooing immediately and find out why. The first thing I'd look at was my brass and go from there.

AK103K, my double fire was due to milking the trigger while bench shooting. Nothing really wrong with the rifle. I now hold it firm on my shoulder even off the rest and am careful not to try to shoot it like a bolt gun. It is not something that had ever happened to me shooting in the woods or off a single point make-shift rest.

 

[rockstar.esq]

MDig the flaws I cited in a very literal fashion. Either read what I posted or continue to bray on off topic nonsense.

30CAL, the slamfires I'm referring to are out of battery slamfires. Hence my statement that it's a potentially fatal hazard to the shooter. Seriously AK103K's post earlier pretty much addresses everything I'm talking about.

Grump, I don't know the FAL adjustment range, your reply is the sort of information I was seeking from the beginning. My earlier post regarding the FAL was when I was asking about why the M1A didn't seem to have any sort of gas regulating system. If you read carefully you'll note that I indicated that I stand corrected. The thing you might also notice is that an "informed" opinion wasn't registered until the 12th post! Even among M1A owners the knowledge isn't absolute! Granted the slamfire thing continues to be a contention Clint McKee has made repeatedly in the text I've previously cited. AK103K's post provided anecdotal supporting evidence to suggest that the potential danger associated with the out of battery slamfires are more than just one authors contention. I'm glad you're M1A has run well, I'm curious as to what differences there might be between yours and AK103K's rifle to determine why his blew up and yours doesn't. Seems pretty reasonable doesn't it?

MechAg94:
Seriously show me where I exaggerated anything and I'll cop to it. Ignoring a potential risk is not the same as an informed position. I started out admitting I could be wrong as could the text from which I cited. You've cited your anecdotal evidence which is tremendously helpful, and precisely what I asked for.


Dr.Dickie & MechAg94 :
If your gun isn't bedded my question is does it regularly shoot 1MOA? If not your dismissive comments aren't proving any particular point. Aside from your unwavering loyalty to a particular gun.

Folks I see a trend going here that seems like the general impression is that I'm reaming a long loved rifle. The deal is that I read a book that contradicted many of my expectations of the rifle. Since a book is a singular and potentially flawed source, I sought counsel from THR members. I stated in my original post that the M1A is a gun I'd love to love.

The dismissive posts revolving around "don't buy one then" are missing the more constructive point. Using the SKS as an example, the slamfire potential can be reduced to the owner through the installation of a $3.00 part. If M1A owners had such an option available I'd expect that most if not all would pony up. More to the point it seems like manufacturers would just include that modification for the commercially retailed M1A's currently being made. As for the rest of the points I made originally, no rifle is perfect nor did I claim the M1A was supposed to be.

I've tried to illustrate the M1A design in the context of options available to the engineers at the time it was developed. Many of you seem to take umbrage with questioning a guns design once it's been manufactured. If it weren't for this sort of thinking, most if not all modern firearms wouldn't have been created. I guess more to the point, if the debate angers you I'm not sure why. If any of you would be kind enough to elaborate I'm sure I could learn something from it.

 

[AK103K]

my double fire was due to milking the trigger while bench shooting.

Gotcha. I've never had that happen, but I've heard others talk about it. I was more referring to it happening and you not knowing why.

Even after all this time, I'm still a little leery of the whole design and seem to be more tuned into what these type rifles are doing while I'm shooting them. Its as if I have "spidey senses" now when I shoot them.

 

[bofe954]

OK rockstar, the "shoot more read less" crack is out of line since I don't know you. Honestly it wasn't really directed specifically at you but more at the constant internet overanalysis of every minute aspect of every firearm (car, motorcycle etc) done by people with little real world experience with them.


But if you want to nitpick posts-

MDig the flaws I cited in a very literal fashion

Seriously show me where I exaggerated anything and I'll cop to it

From your first post-

batters the gun to death with commercial ammo

Much harder than it needs to be

Seriously stupid

I wouldn't say these things were presented without bias. They weren't posed as questions but as statements complete with extra commentary.

I don't see a question mark in the whole post so I am not sure what you are really asking. But...

After my reading I've come to identify the two main reasons for the record of accuracy associated with the M1A. The first is the sights. Without a doubt the iron sights on the M1A are superb. The second is the ammunition. The 7.62x51 was/is loaded to a much higher level of quality and consistency than the 30-06 was for non match ammo. The powder advances no doubt play a huge role here. If I'm wrong about my conclusions I'd love to hear arguements against them.

Answered in earlier posts.

I'd really like to believe that the M1A was/is the finest rifle the US military has ever fielded but I need to see some evidence to disprove my earlier contentions.

I don't think there is an answer to the above. Everything has pluses and minuses.

This thread actually has brought up some interesting facts, but to me it is basically a post trolling for an argument and then wondering what the fuss is.

 

[byf43]

Consider that Fulton Armory is ramping up production of MK14 Model O and shippping them directly to the sandbox,
Troy is creating a truly modular weapon system with - you guessed it - the M14 as the foundation of the platform, (Troy MCS) and Ron Smith is doing the same with Crazy Horse M14 rifles built on LRB receivers. CMI, (Checkmate Industries) is churning out M14 mags at a fever pitch and is producing true USGI issue magazines. Also consider that CMP has recalled all lease M-14 rifles nationwide. More Clinton torch-cutting? Don't think so. Look for a M-14 CMP gun fitted into a Troy MCS coming soon to the Airborne unit near you...
Why not the AR-10? FAL? G3? FNSCAR? there certainly are plenty of them...Hmmm.... For a 50-year old rifle, the M-14 is certainly proving itself to be on par, (or better) than most rifles in the field today....

Sources, please!

 

[telomerase]

While the M1 and M14/M1A do have the "web", slam fires are still possible and can be catastrophic. I was lucky enough to come through one with a GI Springfield M1 from the DCM about 20 years ago using LC 69 issue ammo. The rifle held together for the most part, but did fire out of battery on loading a single round in slow fire. If it had been in a rapid fire string, I most likely would not be typing this right now. The rear of the receiver from just aft of the serial number was blown off and the stock cracked with a big chunk blown out of it. The bolt was jammed into the back of the receiver and would not come forward. The op rod handle ripped the palm of my hand open, and you could read the head stamp of the case in reverse on my palm. The recovered empty case was about an inch long. Never did find the rear of the receiver.

Ouch! Is it possible to retrofit a firing pin return spring?

At the end of the day it was the Indians and tax free casinos not the Gatling Gun.

I stand corrected. Now that I think about it, I don't think American citizens are even allowed to own Gatling guns (at least not the electric kind), and they certainly aren't allowed to own casinos.

 

[Zullo74]

I stand corrected. Now that I think about it, I don't think American citizens are even allowed to own Gatling guns (at least not the electric kind), and they certainly aren't allowed to own casinos.

Both assertions are bogus and untrue!

 

[trbon8r]

rockstar,

I'm trying to be polite here, but how can I politely tell you that you don't have a good grasp of the subject at hand?

Get yourself an M14 type rifle, or better yet three of them like I do, and then you will be more qualified to talk about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the rifle. Until then, you are just repeating speculation, and the words of a questionable source like Scott Duff. Scott may be good at identifying whether it was Mabel Smith or Agnes Jones on the SA assembly line in January 1943 who cranked out the first -5 or -6 or whatever minor revision of an M1 Garand part you might imagine. When it comes to tech advice I would look elsewhere.

There are plenty of good smiths that are experts on the M14 platform and can help fill you in on the good, bad, and the ugly; Gus Fisher, Ted Brown, Clint Fowler, Phil Arrington, etc.

The M14 has its drawbacks like any other platform. Yes bedding is one of the biggest drawbacks, but that is managable. Double lug the action with welded in front and rear lugs, and the bedding should shoot to match standards for the life of the barrel. Try more like 5000+ rounds instead of 1000. In fact, a nice tight fitting GI fiberglass stock and some minor match tuning will get you a 1.5 MOA rifle without bedding. I'm talking stuff like unitizing the gas assembly, trigger job, and a good quality barrel. Not exactly high tech stuff.

Regarding the "safety hazard" of slam fires, I don't see the point here. The M14 is a military weapon first and foremost. It was never designed to be single loaded and have the bolt dropped at full speed on a loaded chamber. Single loading the rifle was a creation of service rifle competition which the M14, like the Garand was adapted to do, but was never designed for. The rifle is designed to have a full mag inserted, charge, pull trigger until empty, then repeat.

Lastly, my rifles don't beat up shell casings, nor do the receivers hammer themselves into disrepair. I'm not trying to be rude here, only saying that you need to get some trigger time with the M14 before believing everything some guy writes in a book.

 

[rockstar.esq]

bofe954 You've made some cogent points, thanks for your reply. I agree that I didn't pose a series of questions so much as I tendered a series of contentions and asked for correction and or confirmation from THR members.
For what it's worth, questions can be asked without a question mark.

That said I can see your point about how it could be taken as asking for an argument. I was asking for arguments for or against a list on contentions, not a hate thread. In fact in my first post I described the bittersweet feeling of wanting to believe the M1A is the finest military rifle extant in the face of information coming from "authorities" on the subject indicating otherwise. So my bias about the flaws is absolutely negative, my bias about the rifle otherwise is absolutely positive. I elaborated on this point several times.

In later posts I was positive with posters and quick to admit corrections made by those with more knowledge. Hence not being a troll nor trying to encourage the notion I wanted to annoy people, especially helpful people.


Granted "...batters the gun to death..." isn't literal so much as it is descriptive. That would be why I wrote it as commentary to my literal point just prior. The same rational was applied to my complete list: Literal reason, personal take on it, correct me if I'm wrong.

In fact that's been my M.O. throughout.

 

[Fingolfin]

What has always amazed me about both the Garand and the M-14 is that the action is completely exposed to the elements! Uncovered bolt, external guide rail and op-rod. I think that they worked at all in combat with that sort of design is pretty neat. Hahaha especially when the Japs were putting dust covers on their bolt guns.

 

[No_Brakes23]

Those are all excellent reasons why I choose to look at a Saiga .308, FN FAL, or POF upper AR10 rather than an M1A. Plus that whole pistol grip thing.

But for reasons already stated, The M1A/M14 is still a fine MBR.

The indignation and furor of the M14 set defending their rifle sounds like us 1911 fans beating back the hordes of Glock/etc shooters decrying Old Slabsides.

 

[Geno]

To allow a single read to so overwhelmingly alter your perspective of the M14/M1A paltform is not prudent. One should engage in general review of the literature to determine the pros and the cons from a wide range of writers. God forbid the readers would have jumped on the Zumbo bandwagon based on one post, and forsake the "black rifles".

 

[RecoilRob]

To expand on the 'Slamfire' thing a bit, AK103K's blowup was most probably NOT initiated by the firing pin. If it was, it could have been prevented by proper maintenance and repair of the firing pin and associated bridge/slot in the receiver which is there to prevent premature release of the pin...until the bolt is locked.

More likely, the blowup out of battery was due to a high or senstive primer that went off before the bolt was locked up. That is NOT the rifles fault and, given that same round in all the other MBR's, would have given some amount of discomfort. Only a true blow-back design would have allowed that kind of a slam-fire without much damage.

Worrying about the firing pin on the M1A is something you needn't do. Mine leaves only the faintest of marks on soft Winchester primers in normal operation. I have no worries that it will set anything off....but, I watch the pin camming surface for wear and am ready to repair when any is evident.

 

[AK103K]

More likely, the blowup out of battery was due to a high or senstive primer that went off before the bolt was locked up.

If it had been reloads in my case, I would tend to agree with you here. I was using DCM issued, Lake City 69 when my gun went. I'm not saying the LC69 didnt have a high or sensitive primer, but thats even scarier if it did.

The rifle was a DCM gun that I had just got. It wasnt my first M1 and I was very familiar with them and how they worked. I totally striped it when I got it and it had about 100 rounds fired through it without any incident before this happened. I asked the people in Anniston for a report on what they found, but they never got back to me on it, other than sending me a new rifle, so I guess they figured it wasnt "my" fault anyway. They got my rifle, what was left of the case, and the bandoleer of ammo I was shooting, so if they figured it out, they stayed mum on it. They may well have just chucked it all in the trash, who knows.

Prior to this happening, I shot a lot of reloaded 30-06 and .308 out of M1's and M14's/M1A's using a number of different primers, many of them match primers, and never had one issue with the gun going off other than me pulling the trigger. Afterwards, I still continue to shoot these rifles, but I became a little more anal about my reloading practices for them. I now use CCI's primers and use a primer mike on all cases.

If you consider the number of rounds fired through these rifles each year, the number of these incidents are insignificant. I think most are probably due to improper/sloppy reloading, some may be to parts failure or improper maintenance, whos to say for sure. No matter what, it still goes to show that you had better be paying attention to all of what you do and dont be getting lackadaisical about any of it.

 

[Onmilo]

Uh, Fulton Armory doesn't have a contract to produce MK14 Mod 0 rifles.
Crane Naval Depot and Smith Enterprises do.
Smith is also contracted to produce the Product Improvement M14 program which includes standard battle rifle upgrades and Sniper and Designated Marksman rifles.
You can, as an individual, buy most or all of the goodies that go into upgrading these rifles from Fulton Armory or Smith Enterprises direct.