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Sad state of pistol caliber carbine selection

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by braindead0, Jun 6, 2003.

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  1. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    So I've been trying to figure out what pistol caliber carbine to get, and having one heck of a time. The choices seem to be mostly cheap junk (hi-point, no offense to those that like them) or way expensive (a grand is a bit much methinks).

    The other options are of unknown quality, and I can't get my hands on one (or even see them). Stuff like Kel-tec, Cobray, Feather, soon to hopefully exist CX4... nobody's got 'em. Don't care much for the AR style, wife has problems with the controls...

    Can't get an upper for my Taurus 92 (Until next year according to Mech-tech), don't want a 1911 or a Glock...

    I stopped at a local shop just to see (off hand) what they might have this week. You could get a hi-point, or a USC....or a Thompson... Not much selection there.

    It's like there's this whole void in the $300 - $600 price range that needs to be filled with quality products that are properly marketed and available.

    Oh well, I'm holding off.. I need a carbine that both my wife and I can shoot (or I'll be buying two, and that's money that could be spent on more handguns ;-).. so it's important that we both get to try it out.

    I just thought it was odd the huge gap in that stores (and every store I've been to around hereabouts) inventory.... Anybody got an engineering degree? :D

    perhaps I'm just too darned picky.
     
  2. Destructo6

    Destructo6 Member

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    Have you thought about a HK-94 clone? InvestmentGradeFirearms was building up and ironing out SW5s for about $250 a build. Basically, you send him the parts you want from FAC or SW and he'll put them together. Out the door, it'll probably be $1200, which is a bit over your target.
     
  3. Z_Infidel

    Z_Infidel Member

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    Let's see...

    Winchester
    Marlin
    Rossi

    ...oh, you mean you didn't want a lever gun? :D
     
  4. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    Hey, don't think I haven't been tempted to go with a lever gun. But I'm really trying to find something that both me and the wife can use effectively. She can't handle lever actions very well, and doesn't like 'em anyway.
     
  5. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    braindead,

    I know exactly what you're talking about. I complained about this last year and ended up buying a RRA 9mm upper for my AR. Now I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not.
     
  6. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    I don't own an AR or other compatible rifle, so the upper isn't a choice. But it seems to me that combination tends to be a bit on the heavy side... At least every AR style 9mm conversion I've fired (we've got a lot in the club) has been oddly balanced and a bit heavy.

    When you consider the Feather Rav-9MM weight 5 pounds....
     
  7. Devonai

    Devonai Member

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    If matching the caliber with your Taurus isn't an issue, why not go with a M1 Carbine? The .30 Carbine cartridge has more oomph than a .357 and you can get pre-ban mags for a song. Replacement parts are plentiful and there are accessories out the yang.
     
  8. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    Not really, they are about the same with 110gr bullets. Much less flexibility with the .30 carbine. Not that I'm dissing it, just pointing out it doesn't have more oomph.

    Where do you buy an M1 carbine for a reasonable price? I've seen service grade for $1000, might as well buy a USC at that point.

    I remember years ago (probably 20 years at least), cases and cases of unissued M1's at a gun show, still covered in cosmo. He was selling them for $125 each.. I should have bought all of them!
     
  9. Shooter973

    Shooter973 Member

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    Pistol cal carbines!

    What about the Ruger carbines, 9mm, 40S&W, or even 44mag. ? I have several of the Winchester pistol cal carbines and a couple of the Ruger 44's and like them all. I also have a Vollinteer(sic) Arms 45acp that is a cheap knock-off of the Thompsons and it works very well with Round nose ammo. :)
     
  10. Z_Infidel

    Z_Infidel Member

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    I think if I were in your position I'd wait for the CX4. I'm betting it will be a fine gun for its purposes. I've heard availability timeframes of June and September, but I have no idea if either is accurate. Not advice, mind you -- just an opinion.

    Plus, since I have to wait for my Winchester .357 I think you should have to wait, too! :D
     
  11. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    The PC9 is a possible option, but I don't think I could adjust the stock much.

    And yeah, as this point the CX4 seems to be the only thing that fits the bill.. But I doubt I'll buy one until it's been wrung out to dry for a while.
     
  12. Kobun

    Kobun Member

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    On top of a big pile of ammo
    Here are some other choices.
    Probably passes your $1000 limit, but choices non the less.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    K.
     
  13. 22x9

    22x9 Member

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    There's always the internet. That's how I got my Feather. Had it sent to my local FFL and tada, it was in my hands with a couple days.

    Whereas I prefer to to go the local gunshops, sometimes you have to shop globally.
     
  14. Devonai

    Devonai Member

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    Perhaps, but by the time you end up outfitting yourself with a .357 Sig carbine you've gone above your price limit.
     
  15. USGuns

    USGuns Member

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  16. natedog

    natedog Member

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    LIES! ALL LIES! It's time to dispell the thoughts that the .357 Magnum is more powerful than the .30 Carbine. Here is the information I have gathered:

    Commercial Remington Express:


    1990 FPS
    110 grain soft point =
    967 fp energy at the muzzle, or 600 fpe at 100 yards

    Cor-bon .357 Magnum:

    1265 FPS
    180 grain BCSP =
    640 FPE at the muzzle

    .30 Carbine has 600 fpe at 100 yards, while the .357 Magnum has 640 fpe AT THE MUZZLE!
     
  17. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

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    Other than as toys, or play guns, there is no justification for pistol caliber carbines in the first place.

    They are neither fish, nor fowl
     
  18. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    the pistol caliber carbine is the ideal truck gun for urban work. why?

    because it takes the same magazines as your ccw piece.


    you can leave it in your car, and have it ready to go almost instantly by loading it with your relaod magazine. (you do carry a reload magazine, right?)
     
  19. Devonai

    Devonai Member

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    Ah, but what was the barrel length of this test? I'm betting it was nowhere near 18".

    I, too sought to do a side-by-side comparison, but I could not conform my data to fit a control group, i.e. I couldn't find any data on the 110 grain .357 as fired from a carbine. Jack another 30% velocity increase onto that and then we can talk, but that's only a very general comparison of pistol vs rifle velocities.
     
  20. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    I've found several published 110gr .357 loads that exceed 2000fps, and all of them (except the wimpiest) are in the mid 1900's..

    There are also 125gr 1700fps loads.. out of a 6" barell.

    My main problem with Feather is that I can't get my hands on one.. I know of nobody that has first hand knowledge (expect a post on another thread, but he got his much cheaper than the best price I can find).

    From what I can tell, the Kel-tec sub 2000 is no better than a hi-point at twice the price.. doesn't make any sense to buy a gun that you have to 'fluff and buff' in order to have it function properly.

    The Ruger PC9 seems to be the only reasonably priced quality pistol caliber carbine in existance.. But the pull is too long for my wife.

    Perhaps I'm looking for the carbine that doesn't exist.:rolleyes:
     
  21. iamkris

    iamkris Member

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    Braindead0

    I'm having the same problems but I'm looking for a 45 ACP. I don't want to spend more than about $500. Having the same caliber in a carbine and pistol rocks!

    What caliber are you looking for? I'm assuming 9mm since you talked about a Mech Tech upper for your Taurus 92. If so, you have lots of choices available to you in that price range. Marlin Camp 9 can be had for under $400. Kel Tec and Feather RAV can be had for another $250 on top of that. Ruger PC9 too. In the $1000 range include the HKs.

    I personally just ordered a Mech Tech for my 1911 frame. Can't find any other 45 carbines for a reasonable price. Even Camp 45s are going for over $500.
     
  22. amprecon

    amprecon Member

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    Well, unless it has to be a pistol caliber carbine, I'd recommend an SKS, Mini-14, Mini-30, AK-47, Ruger PC series or even the .30 carbine.

    I personally feel that if your going to have a carbine length gun why not have it in a more potent caliber unless there are other considerations such as over penetration in close-quarters or noise. Recoil is not even really a consideration in calibers built for carbines.
     
  23. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    A 40-gr .223 JHP penetrates less (both in gelatin and in wallboard) than a 125-gr .357 JHP or a 115-gr 9mm JHP. So overpenetration isn't an issue. Good point about noise, though.
     
  24. jimbo

    jimbo Member

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    braindead makes an excellent point. There is a huge variety of firearms available in every category except pistol-caliber carbines. Full-size auto HG, revovler, snubbie, sub-compact, black rifles, bolt-action and lever. But the number of pistol-caliber carbines (not including levers) is less than 6 I think.

    I guess there is light demand for them or gun manufacturers would have responded to the high demand. Maybe the Beretta Storm will change that. But right now, unless you get a lever gun, you have very few choices.

    Good point, braindead.
     
  25. braindead0

    braindead0 Member

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    I guess my main issue is that I can't get my hands on anything in the 'reasonable' range... Seems gun stores just want to carry the bottom and top ends..

    Of course, I'll be if I put a HK USC in my wifey's hands.. she'll fall in love and then I can justify spending $1000 ;-)

    I wouldn't mind .45ACP.. then I have a reason to buy a .45 ;-)
     
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