"Saddle ring carbine" terminology

[Corpral_Agarn]

I still disagree that using a few bold print words for emphasis indicates someone in emotional about a point but I would agree that choosing a forum name based on something someone does not like (rather than something someone likes) speaks volumes.

Mike

I think we need photos or documentation of people using the saddle ring and not worry too much on syntax.

This is an interesting topic to me.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

This is an interesting topic to me.

Me too. The single point "sling" (actually a lanyard since it is not used for stability) is not new by any means.

Mike

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

So I found this Article particularly interesting. It even mentions a "California Loop" which is a style of carring a rifle over the saddle horn. (From: http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jco...am/firearms/3498-rifle-packin-in-the-old-west)

"Another way of carrying a longarm, which remained popular in the open country of the West for a long time, was utilizing a simple device known as the “California horn loop.” The Westerner would make a loop from a small piece of leather, approximately 4-6 inches wide by around 10-12 inches in length. Into one end, he cut a crescent shape and into the other, a round hole. After folding the leather in half, first the circular opening was placed over the saddle horn and then, the crescent cutout. The Westerner then slipped the rifle into the folded portion of this makeshift scabbard, which held it in place (around the receiver section) in the saddle. In this horn loop, the rifle hung at an angle to the side of the saddle, allowing the firearm to be quickly withdrawn by the rider whether he was mounted or on foot. If desired, the gun could be left hanging from the saddle should the rider want to leave the rifle with his horse.

This method still works well in open country and offers a modest degree of comfort for the horseman, so long as the horse is walking. Any gait faster than a walk, and the rider is advised to rest one hand on the butt stock of the rifle to help steady the firearm and keep it from bouncing around, possibly slamming repeatedly into his chest or chin."​

There is also a slide show at the link.

I am thinking that the idea of putting a loop on the saddle ring for the saddle horn may have been used (or at least tried) by people with the saddle ring on their rifles. I submit that cowboys and folks that didn't travel with a carbine much probably used it when their horse was walking and moved the rifle to their hand for a trot or canter.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

From the same article:

"One feature that started with military carbines and eventually found its way to some civilian sporting arms was the “saddle ring.” Originally, this metal ring, usually found along the left side of an army carbine’s receiver and/or wrist of the stock area, was how a trooper attached his longarm to a leather sling worn over his shoulder. A steel snap, hook-type swivel was in turn attached to the sling. The horse soldier snapped this steel snap hook to the carbine ring, and with the aid of the socket or short carbine boot, could carry his longarm with him while mounted. Some civilian gun makers, such as Winchester, employed this military accessory to their carbine models. While a few non-military riflemen did employ the cumbersome sling on their guns and other Westerners tied their carbines to the cantle strings of their saddles via these rings, for the most part, such saddle rings were, and still are, vestigial appendages."​

Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Malamute]

Yes, it is interesting.

As a former believer in the commonly held belief about them, I'm pretty much of the opinion that sling rings on Winchesters were vestigal appendages.

This is an interesting comment

While a few non-military riflemen did employ the cumbersome sling on their guns and other Westerners tied their carbines to the cantle strings of their saddles via these rings, for the most part, such saddle rings were, and still are, vestigial appendages."

I'm still curious about historical references. It seems a widespread belief, but I dont recall seeing any historical references to them being carried in that fashion. Its certainly not impossible to do so, just not very practical, and with the chance of the loop fouling in the lever when cycling the action.

 

[Jim K]

For something that everyone said didn't matter, this thread sure has gone on a long time!

Jim

 

[Malamute]

^ ^ ^

That probably describes much of whats discussed on forums. Its not that its important, its that its interesting to talk about.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

For something that everyone said didn't matter, this thread sure has gone on a long time!

Jim

A lot of stuff doesn't matter but is fun to talk about.
I like researching the old ways. I work on a cattle ranch and find these old articles very interesting. Just wanted to share the findings for others that may be interested.

Anything old west is fairly interesting to me.

 

[Malamute]

Anything old west is fairly interesting to me

^ ^ ^ This.

 

[X-Rap]

I believe a large number of the Winchester Carbines went to South American countries who used them in their military forces.
I would suspect that the lanyard was still used down there.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I believe a large number of the Winchester Carbines went to South American countries who used them in their military forces.
I would suspect that the lanyard was still used down there.

Now that's an idea that had not occured to me before.

Looking into it.

Thanks for the idea

 

[AKElroy]

We've all heard this term. A "saddle ring carbine" (SRC) is a carbine (antique or relatively modern) with a large ring on the left side.

But this is based on a historical fallacy. The rings on carbines had absolutely nothing to do with saddles. The old cavalry troopers used the rings to attach their carbines to sliding hooks on diagonal belts (carbine slings) on the troopers' bodies. There was no attachment to either the horse or the saddle. At best, the carbine barrel was inserted in a boot on the saddle, just to keep it from flopping around. But in any case the ring wasn't used for this purpose.

When did this erroneous terminology get started, and isn't it time we finally put it to rest?

Finally! The controversy is addressed. I've oft pondered the proper nomenclature to attach to my bubba-delete no-ring-former possible saddle-ring bearing carbine. I just call it Steve.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Finally! The controversy is addressed. I've oft pondered the proper nomenclature to attach to my bubba-delete no-ring-former possible saddle-ring bearing carbine. I just call it Steve.

I actually think that the ring was used to attach the rifle to the saddle. Not often and probably not by people who know better, but I could see it none the less.

I could also see the saddle ring being used to keep the rifle in a scabbard by tying it to the scabbard itself for steep country or some such.

As to the "south o' the border" rifles, i found this photo of the mexican revolution and it looks like these gents carried their rifles in their hands while riding:

 

[Malamute]

Not sure how that double tapped,....

 

[Malamute]

I've heard the idea expressed of the ring being used to secure a carbine in a scabbard, but all the scabbards I have and have seen (other than the micro-sized socket or boot used by the cavalry with the over the shoulder sling), the ring part of the gun is pretty far down in the scabbard. It seems like it would be very unhandy to attach anything to it, and anything attached to it would allow the gun to come pretty far out before it was stopped. A ring midway down the stock to the buttplate would seem more useful. I also havent seen historical references to the ring being so used, or information about any strap or clip used for that purpose.

I think it was more Winchester being hopeful of military contracts than anything else. The rear sights on the early carbines are also more military styled than sporting styled. I've banged the 600 yard plate with an early type carbine sight on a 94, and was only using the first 1/4 or less of the usuable sight when in standing position. I have no idea how far it will actually range to (the marks arent yards, they are a simple reference scale), but 2000 yards wouldnt surprise me.

Winchester was slow to change. Like mentioned before, Winchester stopped threading the magazine cap into the tube and used a cross screw in the late 1870's, but used the useless screwdriver slot in the end cap until the late 20's or later. I like the looks of them, as they were part of the earlier guns, but the slot is utterly useless, and seems to attract bubbas with large screwdrivers to attempt to remove them with all the force they can muster. This despite the evidence of the cross screw, resulting in the screwdriver slot being deformed in the futile attempt to remove the cap by unscrewing it. On the same idea, later carbines probably had better sights, all things considered, but I still like the early type carbine front sight, and have changed later guns to that style.

 

[lysanderxiii]

As to the "south o' the border" rifles, i found this photo of the mexican revolution and it looks like these gents carried their rifles in their hands while riding:

They probably have scabbards, just like the gent in front with the saber. He looks to have slipped his rifle/carbine scabbard under the seat jockey.

I find it highly unlikely anyone could march on horseback for long distances without a sling or scabbard.

 

[Malamute]

I've carried rifles on horses a little. If I didnt have a scabbard, I carried it across the saddle, basically on my lap, hand on the wrist of the stock, gun held against the fork by my body. Carried by a sling seems like it would beat you up if moving fast, but I know it was done, and would be more secure than carried across the saddle.

When using the rifle that way I took my camp saw and cut the pistol grip off the '03 Springfield sporter stock and made it a straight grip. It was easier to hold when riding.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

i may be wrong but im thinkin. the saddle ring and the thong attached to it, may of been very handy. during riding you carried your rifle in your right hand or in the scabbered.

when yu got off to take a piss you hung the rifle off your saddle horn by the thong. not very good idea becuz horses are not trustworthy. they run off, get spooked etc.

but to be honest horses back then were broke to death, they got rode every day there whole life. you could shoot off them or near them and they would just look at you.. they were just happy to have a rest.

so a thong from the saddle ring over the horn would not be that hard to imagine.

i can see me doing it. on a horse i trusted

 

[lysanderxiii]

I've carried rifles on horses a little. If I didnt have a scabbard, I carried it across the saddle, basically on my lap, hand on the wrist of the stock, gun held against the fork by my body. Carried by a sling seems like it would beat you up if moving fast, but I know it was done, and would be more secure than carried across the saddle.

What did you do with the rifle when you walked the horse?

Every mounted unit I every read about had rather rigorous ride/walk/rest cycles. Horses, like the men, don't perform well when exhausted.

 

[bobmcd]

And now for something completely different...

I just recently got into shooting lever guns, and have a Rossi 92 .357 carbine. Since reading this thread, I have started wondering if it is possible/advisable to add a ring to a rifle that was not built with one?

I probably would rarely use it, but I figure it might be similar to the single-point sling I have on my AR. For the time being, my lever rifle is the only long gun I own that does not have a sling.

 

[Malamute]

What did you do with the rifle when you walked the horse?

I didnt walk the horse much, but I carried it in hand if I did. I wasnt doing grueling distance marches, just riding in the mountains exploring around and hunting some. Being good grizzly country, I never left the rifle in a scabbard when I got off anyways.

We also took dudes for trail rides. One day somebody from an overcivilized part of the country complained about the presence of weapons. The boss came out and told us to hide the guns. I left the rifle/scabbard in the tack shed and we put our pistols in our saddle bags. At the first bend in the trail, we dug them out and put them on. The client asked what was up, we told them somebody had whined about the guns, but we didnt feel comfortable being out in grizzly country without them. He said he was glad we had them. I asked him to mention it to the boss. He must have, because it never came up again.

At the time, we were having bears come around almost every night, and they were fairly common in the area.

I knew a guy that collected original Sharps buffalo guns. A friend of his drew a buffalo tag in Az. He loaned him an original Sharps, as it seemed appropriate for such a hunt, and on horseback. One day they came back to camp, the guy left the gun in the scabbard. The horse managed to get the stock through the side openings in the trailer they were tied to and splinter the stock at the wrist. He managed to get it pieced back together pretty well, but it was obvious something had happened. Its always been impressed into me by numerous people to never ever leave a gun on a horse for any amount of time. More like, "assume they will try to destroy it if at all possible for them to do so".

I just recently got into shooting lever guns, and have a Rossi 92 .357 carbine. Since reading this thread, I have started wondering if it is possible/advisable to add a ring to a rifle that was not built with one?

I think the 92's came with staple type ring mounts. Theres no reason you couldnt put a threaded shank ring on it. Its a simnple drill and tap job. The newer rings put on Winchester commemoratives had a smalled threaded shank (about 1/8") than the older ones, but seem to do OK when used with a single point sling. If I were doing it, I'd get the older style with the larger shank (almost 1/4" I think).

Junior Doughty used to make and sell a nylon sling with clip to carry carbines in the old cavalry style. It wouldnt be hard to construct one looking at pics.

Juniors old page. Dont try to order one, Junior passed on a couple years ago. ETA: it looks like Juniors daughter is still selling slings.

http://www.castbullet.com/srsling.htm

 

[Averageman]

Saddle Rings were called Saddle rings becaused you used them while in the Saddle.
Not because the carbine was attatched to the Saddle, but because you were in the Saddle.

 

[Readyrod]

I've worked with horses, driving horses with carriages and trams, but not riding, so I'm not an expert, but I think that those saddle rings would be a pack of trouble. A one point hitch would flop around even at a walk, let alone a gallop. And I think you would be much more likely to gallop as cavalry than to pull your gun in an emergency. What would you do when the horse freaks out? Or falls over, or has a horsey fit? I'd much rather have the gun in a scabbard.

 

[Averageman]

Well think of it as a one point sling and then think of all of the ways you could use it in the saddle as opposed to a two point which would take more time to bring in to action, or a scabbard that will in the event of a "Horsey Fit" remove you from your weapon or damage your weapon beyond use.
Saddle ring to lanyard, lanyard to belt adjust carbine to ride accross your saddle or resting on one thigh.
In the event of a "Horesy Fit" you get to take a fall perhaps, but more than liekly you'll keep control of your rifle for the forth comming gun fight festivities.

 

[X-Rap]

From the modern perspective you are probably right but prior to the auto age even the most urban folks were probably a lot more "horsey" than those who claim to be today.
I believe there were fixtures to steady the guns while in transit but in the heat of battle nothing could be worse than being separated from your rifle.