Safe advice - between $3000 and 4500

[Hawkins1]

Hi all, I have been reading a wealth of information re: gun safes but keep finding some that seem better than others and need help making up my mind. Here's what I am leaning toward.

and yes i know you all are probably thinking "Not another Safe Question" but I wanted to try to obtain a more customized discussion. See the facts below:

I like the Fort Knox Guardian 6031 with Deluxe package and possible the safe body upgrade. This would cost about $4200 and would give me 7+gauge body and 1/2 inch in the door (i think).

I then talked to someone who pitched the Amsec 6030 which has the 10 gauge + fire liner composite concrete + 16 gauge. This runs around $2900-3000 and has a 1/2 inch door. I guess the thing that makes me nervous about this is the 10 gauge outer liner. I don't know if its a safe assumption to assume the "7 gauge combined" body as it is separated by "composite concrete" fire protection.

Then you have sturdy safes which are cosmetically less pleasing however probably equiv. to the Amsec and Ft Knox

Finally, Liberty Safe Presidential 25 seemed like a decent option however I think out of the 4, it is 4th in terms of security. I dont like how you cant get a straight answer on the steel in the door. They continue to list the "composite door" size instead of steel thickness.

So long story short, if you were me, how would you swing your decision. I need a "smaller" safe as I have to get it in my basement and dont have a lot of room at the bottom of my steps (otherwise I would go bigger).

Let me know your thoughts, feelings, inputs. Thanks! Your time and comments are greatly appreciated!!!!

 

[Outlaw Man]

I have a larger American Security, and I really love it. Fortunately, I've yet to determine how secure it is.

Honestly, in that price range, I'd be looking at the Amsec and the Sturdy (don't know which model you're considering). I researched "safes" pretty thoroughly for about two years before I finally decided. That Liberty was actually top on my list for a long time until I really looked at Amsec.

 

[a1abdj]

The stairs and small landing area do make it difficult.

Before you decide on the safe, have you determined who is going to install it? You may want to run your situation by them first to make sure it's possible/affordable.

 

[CB900F]

Hawkins1;

In your buget range you can also obtain a Graffunder. Whereas anything you've been taking a look at is not a U.L. rated safe (They're Residential Security Containers, or RSC's), the Graffunder will be a U.L. rated class B safe.

Being a true safe, the body walls are 1/4" plate steel, the door is 1/2" plate steel. The bolts will lock up behind the 3/4" plate steel frame, and the door to frame fit is tight enough you can't get a credit card in the gap let alone the tip of an effective pry bar. The B6026 unit will weight 1225 lbs empty & will require a professional to place in your basement. The walls are backed with 1.5" of a proprietary concrete mixture, and there is a continuous steel inner liner to that. A box within a box in other words, and that provides a very great deal of structural rigidity.

Graffunder is also a custom maker. If you want a safe built to dimension, interior configurations to your design, or custom body colors, it can be done, at a price.

If you're interested, please PM me.

900F

 

[Hawkins1]

I have determined installer. Depending on weight I can get a bigger or small safe. For something over 1200 lbs they use a stair crawler which means smaller safe. I think the sizes 8 have will work and the giy qupted me at 150 using the amsec 6030 stats.

 

[Hawkins1]

Regarding the rumors about the amsec bf with 1/4 inner steel body does anyone have any details on this?

 

[Elessar]

Hawkins1;

In your buget range you can also obtain a Graffunder. Whereas anything you've been taking a look at is not a U.L. rated safe (They're Residential Security Containers, or RSC's), the Graffunder will be a U.L. rated class B safe.

Being a true safe, the body walls are 1/4" plate steel, the door is 1/2" plate steel. The bolts will lock up behind the 3/4" plate steel frame, and the door to frame fit is tight enough you can't get a credit card in the gap let alone the tip of an effective pry bar. The B6026 unit will weight 1225 lbs empty & will require a professional to place in your basement. The walls are backed with 1.5" of a proprietary concrete mixture, and there is a continuous steel inner liner to that. A box within a box in other words, and that provides a very great deal of structural rigidity.

Graffunder is also a custom maker. If you want a safe built to dimension, interior configurations to your design, or custom body colors, it can be done, at a price.

If you're interested, please PM me.

900F

Do Graffunders have a U.L. rating for either burglary or fire?

 

[a1abdj]

Regarding the rumors about the amsec bf with 1/4 inner steel body does anyone have any details on this?

The details are that the safes will have a 1/4" liner. No info on dates.

Do Graffunders have a U.L. rating for either burglary or fire?

No to both, but their E and F rate safes would be built in a very similar fashion to TL-15 and TL-30 safes.

 

[Hawkins1]

Where did you hear about the 1/4 inch steel safes. Would you hold out for one if you were me? I am concerned about the 10/11 gauge outer, concrete composite, and 16 gauge inner. While advertised as 7 gauge total, it just isnt the same.

If the AMSEC had a 7 gauge outer and a 16 guage inner, I would have bought already!

 

[Elessar]

It has been made pretty clear, most recently by a long time amsec engineer, that the drylight fill has no real security value. It is there for heat resistance. So, I think a 1/4" liner is a very nice upgrade to the BF. I'd say it is a game changer, as long as the price keeps it in the same market range.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Actually, a Graffunder F series equates closer to a TLTR rated safe. It incorporates a layer of manganese steel laminated in door. Manganese is a very torch resistant steel.

An E safe has a 1.5" thick door and 1" walls on every other surface. A C rate is a 1" door and 1/2" thick walls. There's a thread here in accessories from a customer I sold a C to in May. It has pictures & his thoughts about it when it arrived & was placed in his home.

Keep in mind that U.L. has more than one rating system. Graffunder is a rather small company that meets, and exceeds, the U.L. build schedule requirements. These are for B, C, E, F, and beyond safes. If the unit is built to, or exceeds, the spec, then that's it's rating. Then there are the U.L. test specs, which are rather expensive and the manufacturer pays for. These are for thermal protection and/or forced entry resistance.
One major point of difference between Graffunder & U.L. is that U.L. insists that any unit that earns a test rating, must have all other units displaying that rating must be identical construction. Graffunder's relockers & bolts are placed at random points in their manufacturing plant. The thought being that if those are at random it makes forced entry, even with power tools, a far more difficult process, even if you knew where they were on one example.

900F

 

[NotAGunNut]

Elessar,
"It has been made pretty clear, most recently by a long time amsec engineer, that the drylight fill has no real security value. It is there for heat resistance. So, I think a 1/4" liner is a very nice upgrade to the BF. I'd say it is a game changer, as long as the price keeps it in the same market range."

Are you sure it's an AMSEC engineer that claimed this? Can you point me to the post please? This is counter to what AMSEC claims:

"2" total wall thickness on all sides featuring our poured DryLight insulation and two layers of steel for exceptional fire and security protection."
Source: http://www.amsecusa.com/Gun_Safes/BF_Series_Gun_Safes/

Their PDF literature states the same information throughout.

 

[Outlaw Man]

Where did you hear about the 1/4 inch steel safes.

Check out the link in his signature.

He and CB900F are not your typical LGS salesmen who don't know anything about their products. The guys who sell legitimate safes have to know their products better, especially if they're doing their own service on them. These guys have proven themselves to have done their homework.

 

[Savage99]

Be aware that there are now safes that can be assembled where you want them!

This means that nobody (the installers) will know that you even have a safe let alone where it is!

You carry the pieces to where you want it and assemble it there. If you want to move the safe you take it apart and do it yourself.

Such safes are made by Snap Safe, Zanotti, and perhaps Champion.



http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm

 

[a1abdj]

It has been made pretty clear, most recently by a long time amsec engineer, that the drylight fill has no real security value. It is there for heat resistance.

Don't misunderstand what was said. The fill material is not a high density barrier like you would find in a commercial safe, and is indeed designed as a fire barrier. Although it is designed as a fire barrier, and is not designed as a security barrier, it does offer resistance to entry.

A great example of this is an inexpensive Sentry safe. These safes are designed solely for fire protection, as they offer very little real security. Without the fill, they have outer shells so thin, that they could easily be bent by hand. The same goes for the plastic interior liner that they use. They then fill that void with a very soft, very loose, very wet insulation.

None of these three things are something that can't be bent, twisted, broken, or squeezed very easily by hand. So the next time you see one of their safes, with all three of these things together in combination, try to bend, twist or break it. You will find that the three weak components together, are quite strong.

The "secret" to how a normally weak material suddenly provides strength is rigidity. Not much different than how flimsy brown craft paper becomes quite stiff when formed into corrugated cardboard. On a safe, it's the inner liner that makes a big difference.

This premise holds just as true on a gypsum board lined safe, like Fort Knox makes, with a steel inner liner. The liners also prevent the insulative materials from crumbling and falling, causing the safe to fail, during a fire. This only works with rigid materials, and doesn't hold true for a soft material, like the ceramic that Sturdy uses. This is where the heavier steel on a Sturdy comes in.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Taking the above, which is true, let's move to Graffunder. The frame of the safe, what the bolts lock up behind, is 3/4" plate steel. On a B rated Graffunder the door is 1/2" steel and every other wall is 1/4" plate steel. The wall is backed by a 1.5" proprietary concrete filler, and that's backed by a steel liner that's continuous. Therefore, you have a box of armor plate, backed by concrete, backed by an inner steel box. The structural rigidity is exceptional.

Then, remember the frame? Next time you're in a store that sells RSC's, take a good look at what the bolts lock up behind. In the vast majority of the cases its going to be a bent sheet metal continuation of the sheet metal side wall. So ask yourself, does bending sheet metal strengthen it, or weaken it? Or, let me put it this way. On a B rate Graffunder, the bottom of the line, there's a 1/2" plate door in front of the bolt lock-up. Then there's the 3/4" plate, behind which are the 1.25" bolts. Furthermore, you can't get a credit card in the door/frame seam let alone the tip of an effective pry bar. Graffunder doesn't need vast numbers of bolts to secure the door, bolts that are on the corners are not needed at all. Large numbers of bolts tend to indicate a weak frame, check it out. I've seen TL30 rated safes with only three active bolts.

900F

 

[2_ar]

Fella's;

Actually, a Graffunder F series equates closer to a TLTR rated safe. It incorporates a layer of manganese steel laminated in the walls & door. Manganese is a very torch resistant steel.
900F

The Graffunder F series is not equivalent to a TLTR safe. It does not come with manganese steel in the body, only the door. So 1" of mild steel in the body + the vermiculite mix and inner liner is what you get. You can add manganese steel to the body but this is a custom option and very expensive.

Manganese steel is used in many TL30 and TL30x6 safes to provide protection from cutting tool attack but it will not provide enough protection for a UL torch attack (and are not advertised as such). Almost all TRTL safes will have metals like copper and aluminum alloy.

 

[NotAGunNut]

CB900F,

Talking about bolts and sheet steel. I think you and many others here will appreciate this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_1M6jTqES8

Who wants to take bets on how long it took to do that much damage? My guess is a couple of minutes. I'm surprised they use that tin can for advertising purposes... I'd hide it.

Either way, on safes with real steel/reinforcement, all the burglar would do is scratch the paint on the door & body.

 

[NotAGunNut]

2_ar: or stainless steel...

 

[a1abdj]

2_ar: or stainless steel...

Or plywood.

 

[NotAGunNut]

Plywood, against a torch attack?

 

[a1abdj]

Plywood, against a torch attack?

Sounds like a bad idea, doesn't it?

I have never seen it on a safe, but I have seen it on vault doors, which carry much higher UL ratings than a typical safe. I didn't believe it myself, when I was drilling a door, and had wood shavings coming out of the hole. I spoke to some people that know more about it than I do, and sure enough, the plywood in the doors is used to prevent torch attacks, while reducing cost and weight.

 

[NotAGunNut]

Hah! Who knew? I thought you were kidding!

 

[Hawkins1]

Ok so here's my journey. I have it down to 2 safes and I'll try to explain myself

Safe 1) AMSEC BF6030 - About $3,000 shipped and installed
Pros - Price, Door is great (1/2 inch plate), Looks nice, warranty
Cons - I was told by the AMSEC rep that the outer steel is 11 gauge, then the cement composite, then a 14 or 16 gauge.

Safe 2) Ft Knox Guardian 6031 - About $4,500 shipped and installed. This includes two deluxe upgrades
Pros - Will have 1/4 inch walls and 1/2 door, looks much better than AMSEC, reputable company (can say that for both), good warranty - not as good as amsec, better options (colors, door organizer is better, etc)
Cons - Price is 1,400 to 1,500 more than AMSEC. I cant think of anymore.

Someone help me make up my mind. Where would you put your guns. FYI, I currently dont have a ton of valuable guns but planning on getting into more gun buying and precious metal collecting

Thanks

 

[CB900F]

Hawkins1;

Here's the thing with the Ft. Knox: I don't believe that those 1/4" thick walls are anything more than attached sheets. In other words they aren't a continuous, solid wall, but a built up wall that is of the thickness advertised, and has discrete attachment points. You're paying plate steel prices for something less.

Edit: I'll also suggest you get a price quote for the AMSEC BF from A1abdj.

900F