Safe Ammo For ROA with Kirst Conversion Cylinder?

[songsofreedom]

Hi Ya'll I'm new to the High Road. I have a Ruger Old Army 5.5 stainless, and a Kirst Conversion Cylinder. I initially bought Goex BP ammo, but it is kind of pricey. I noticed that there were numerous brands out there that offer "COWBOY AMMO" at discount prices and "moderate" loads, such as Ultramax, Magtech, Black Hills, 10X Cowboy ammo.

Is Goex the only "Safe" one? Do any of you guys have experience experimenting with other brands, because the Goex Black Dawg Ammo is $25.00 per box of 50, I'm looking for a decent alternative for good priced shooting action, and hunting as well. Also, are these rounds sufficient to hunt deer with? Thanks in advance guys, I really appreciate any wisdom you guys can bestow on this newbie.

Thanks Guys!

Songs of Freedom

 

[drdirk]

Any cowboy ammo is safe. None of them are cheap. Just don't use 45LC ammo that is intented for hunting, it is usually loaded to a higher pressure. I have the same setup and the best way to safe money is to reload. I use cheap 200 gr lead bullets and roll my own. 45LC is very easy to reload and the brass lasts a long time. Have fun!

 

[Bad Flynch]

Any ammo loaded within SAAMI specs for .45 Colt is acceptable. The manufacturer of the conversion cylinder would not mark it as .45 Colt unless that were true. The Ruger Old Army frame is adequate, and then some.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

standard presure

Any standard presure rounds will be fine - these are loaded to less than 12,500 psi (if memory serves) and propel a 250 grain lead bullet up to 950 fps. The cowboy ammo is better for extended shooting and is closer to 650-700 fps and is even lower presure.

If you would like to save a lot of money and try your hand at reloading, Lee has had the answer for about 60 years now - the Lee Loader:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=647702

At $16, you can't go wrong!

Midway has the bullets, powder, brass and primers too. I recommend Laser Cast/Oregon Trail bullets - very good quality.

The tool comes with a powder dipper and loading guide - I'd recommend a powder but I don't know what the dipper is set-up for - probably Unique which is a pretty good choice.

The reviews listed are five star - both suggest getting a priming too though as that really speeds things up - and is less exciting

You may want to call the Midway people and see what they recommend as they have probably answered this question before!

Have fun!

 

[songsofreedom]

So all cowboy ammo is safe, right?

Thanks a bunch guys, that was great news. I was a little scared to try the other cowboy ammo brands, because they said we had to stick with Black Powder ammo only? I was looking for a little more kick, and something that would be easy to clean up. So, anything that says cowboy ammo on it should be safe, right? Thats great. Did any of you happen to drop any deer or medium sized game with the ruger old army conversion cylinder cowboy ammo set up? I'm curious as I would like to try that this next hunting season. What do you guys think? Any experience with this?

Thanks!

Songs of Freedom

 

[O.S.O.K.]

deer

Standard presure loads are fully capable of taking a whitetail - heart/lung shot.

Do not use cowboy ammo for this though - it is underpowered for target/competition - you want standard presure 45 Colt ammo - a semi wadcutter hardcast bullet at 900 fps+ would be a good hunting choice.

Practice shooting off-hand shooting at 8" paper plates - the furthest distance that you can hit the paper plate every time is your maximum shot distance for hunting.

 

[mike101]

Federal makes a nice .45 Colt SWCHP, 900-1000 fps, which will work fine. CAS rules say nothing over 1000 fps.

As far as what the gun and cylinder will take, well, anything you want to put in it. I've seen the ROA, and the Kirst cylinder, tested with all kinds of ammo, including Buffalo Bore (most powerful .45 Colt ammo there is), Grizzly, and Cor Bon. The gun and cylinder held up fine, but at 1450 fps, the Buffalo Bore must be pretty unpleasant to shoot a lot. Grizzly is a close second (about 1350 fps) and Cor Bon about 1250. I'd stick with the Federal ammo.

 

[songsofreedom]

Thanks Guys! I knew the ROA could take a lickin and keep tickin...

Thanks so much guys! you guys are a real help! I feel more confident now, I knew the ROA could take a pounding, it had to- it is so solid, I can't wait to go hunting with it. I am getting really interested in possibly re-loading, you are right OSOK, at $16, you can't go wrong! And I think I would enjoy myself taking time to load, it will be lots of fun I think... I am going to experiment with different ammo's I was scared before, but you guys made me feel a lot better! Thanks so much! I will definitely let you guys know how it turns out.

Songs of Freedom

www.songsofreedom.com

 

[bigbore442001]

If the cylinder can take higher pressured rounds like Corbon and the like, why do they stipulate Cowboy Level loads? Thanks

 

[O.S.O.K.]

loads for conversion cylinder...

I would not recommend shooting the high pressure loads in this cylinder. Their web site indicates "cowboy loads", not plus pressure loads.

From their web site: "All Kirst Cartridge Konverters® are precision CNC machined in the USA from 4140 Steel and heat-treated. The cylinders are rated "For Black Powder or equivalent loads only," which includes the current Cowboy Loads on the market. .45 caliber cylinders must NEVER be installed in a .36 caliber revolver. The Kirst Cartridge Konverter® must NEVER be used in Brass Frame Revolvers."

Look at the cylinders (for the ROA):

There is no way I would shoot loads generating 32000 - 40000 psi in these cylinders. They even look a little thin for standard loads - look at the thickness between the individual cylinders- very thin. Adequate for standard or less loads but not plus pressure!

Just because they survived "testing" with the higher pressure loads does not mean they will hold up to them on an ongoing basis, or even a single time for that matter.

 

[Bad Flynch]

>They even look a little thin for standard loads - look at the thickness between the individual cylinders- very thin<

Modern SAAMI-spec .45 Colt loads conform to Black Powder pressure limits. SAAMI pressure limit for this ctg. is 14000 psi and a good, stiff BP load will equal or exceed that, depending on the exact circumstances. Again, a cylinder would not be marked or marketed for the .45 Colt cartridge unless SAAMI loads were safe. If it were marked as such and could not stand the gaff of a standard load, the lawyers would have a field day.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

????

BF - what's your point? Look at the sentence before and after that selected quote.

I said in the previous post that standard presure rounds are fine - and I said it again in the 2nd reply.

You have to admit that the cylinders are not "over-engineered" - not that they should be...

I'm not dissing this product - I think it is great!

 

[songsofreedom]

Hi Guys, I'm confused now.... I was going to buy some Cor-Bon Ammo, it seems sufficient for big game hunting (deer), and maybe federal premium also. But I was going to use the cowboy ammo when plinking, just shooting, small game, etc...

There seems to be a debate of opinions going on- from my experience, cowboy action shooters don't even hunt most of the time, and they are against anything over 1000 fps off the bat because they are always reminded of that "regulation" from their respective sanctions.

So I don't know if the gun and cylinder really cant handle the hotter loads, or people just think it should be confined to that cowboy loads?? I know a lot of people don't pick the ruger old army for a hunting gun, but most use it on the cowboy circuit and its very popular for action shooting.

But I wanted to know some "Facts", about safety... Can I safely use a corbon Long Colt, at 1300 fps on a regular basis and not worry about blowing my hand and face off??? Whats the Real Deal Guys??

This is getting really interesting...

Thanks guys, you are the best!

Songs of Freedom.

 

[songsofreedom]

So Whats The Real Deal About Safe Ammo For Roa?

Hi Guys, I'm confused now.... I was going to buy some Cor-Bon Ammo, it seems sufficient for big game hunting (deer), and maybe federal premium also. But I was going to use the cowboy ammo when plinking, just shooting, small game, etc...

There seems to be a debate of opinions going on- from my experience, cowboy action shooters don't even hunt most of the time, and they are against anything over 1000 fps off the bat because they are always reminded of that "regulation" from their respective sanctions.

So I don't know if the gun and cylinder really cant handle the hotter loads, or people just think it should be confined to that cowboy loads?? I know a lot of people don't pick the ruger old army for a hunting gun, but most use it on the cowboy circuit and its very popular for action shooting.

But I wanted to know some "Facts", about safety... Can I safely use a corbon Long Colt, at 1300 fps on a regular basis and not worry about blowing my hand and face off??? Whats the Real Deal Guys??

There was an interview between dakotaammo, and corbon about their .45 colt. Basically, it seems that as long as the firearm is not an antique, and is not busted in anyway, it will work fine in the ruger.

www.dakotaammo.net/faq.htm


The question is, can the cylinder handle it? I don't know if Mr. Walt Kirst would say yes, because the cylinder is maybe not made as strong as it could be?

Also, Mr. kirst may be biased because he is a cowboy action shooter himself, and he promotes that sport, not hunting.. There are two sides to this fence, whats really going on?? I'm on the hunting side first, but I also support the cowboy action side too, I would like to think my ruger old army is capable to handle both, not just one category..


This is getting really interesting...

Thanks guys, you are the best!

Songs of Freedom.

 

[HT]

I have the Taylor conversion cylinder. Think both cylinders are good procucts but understand both manuf. state that loads equivalent to Cowboy Action specs are the max loads intended to be used in their products.
I plan on staying in that range. Have only fired 1 cylinder of Magtec cowboy 45lc thru the ROA so far. Believe they are at 850 fps. No harm to the cylinder but did manage to blow the loading lever latch off the barrel. Think that is a first for a Ruger.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

+P loads

Please do not use the +P loads in your conversion cylinders. Yes, you are risking a blown cylinder.

Really no need to - the 900 fps 250 grain bullets will do the job on deer.

If you are really keen on hotter 45 Colt loads then get a Ruger Blackhawk or old Vaquero - the newer Vaqueros are for standard loads.

 

[songsofreedom]

Any other similar safe cartridges you recommend, osok??

Thank You, OSOK!! I was considering the corbon, but after a little more research, I was alarmed, I could have made a HUGE mistake! I looked over the 250 gr Speer Gold Dot ammo you recommended, I think that is a great place to start. Anything slightly stronger that you would recommend as well, that would be safe, and within the SAAMI limits? I really appreciate your advice and wisdom. Thank you again, OSOK.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

no problem

I am no wise sage but do know about cartridge pressure and such - and I don't know of another comercial load that would be suitable for deer hunting - I am sure there are some, but a search will be necessary. Just look for standard pressure loading. I don't recomend the old-style "conical" bullets loaded by Remington and Winchester. You want a good meplat or flat-nose area on your hunting bullet.

It is clear tha the primary use of the 45 Colt today is CAS - there are many many options for cowboy ammo.

I really do urge you to handload your own cartridges using the hard Laser Cast or similar semiwadcutter bullets - they really are the best hunting option available for your "shooting platform". Even better are "wide, flat nose" styles - I think "Leadhead" Bullets offers them. Again, it's no trick to load the cartridge to 950 fps with a 250 or even 270 grain hard cast bullet and get full penetration on a whitetail - even at raking angles.

The Speer load would be good for broadside shots only - I wouldn't trust a hollow point to penetrate at 45 degree angle shots or through a shoulder - just too soft and expand too much/quickly.

Hope that helps.

 

[mike101]

Q. "If the cylinder can take higher pressured rounds like Corbon and the like, why do they stipulate Cowboy Level loads? Thanks"

A. LAWYERS.

I don't know about a steady diet of +P ammo. The tests I read about were just that. Tests. A day at the range. As far as the gun goes, it's no problem.

When Bill Ruger had the Old Army developed, he told his engineers that it had to be as strong as a Super Blackhawk (.44 Mag.), and at least as accurate. When they tested the prototype, they stuffed each chamber in the cylinder full of as much Bullseye as it would hold, behind a round .457 ball. That's about 40+ grains of high pressure smokeless powder, and the gun held together. Don't try this at home.

Any cartridge ammo that is producing muzzle velocities of 1250fps, or more, is going to feel like a .44 magnum when fired. That's about where the .44 magnums start, velocity-wise. Have you ever fired a .44 magnum SA revolver? It's a MAJOR handful, and after the first few rounds, not so much fun.

Honestly, for deer hunting, I'd just cram about .40 grains of 777 behind a .457 ball.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

lawyers

Mike - I share your disdane for the effect that our "esquire" friends have had on things in general.

However, in this case I believe the specification of "cowboy ammo" is for honest safety reasons and not inspired by just liability concerns.

 

[songsofreedom]

Thanks, guys.. OSOK- Do you recommend any powder type/primer type-size to load the bullets for the .45 colt hunting load? I am seriously thinking of loading my own, also I found an excellent round from Buffalo Bore that will do the trick- It is their 255gr Keith bullet in Standard Load. Its supposed to be new, and they said it would work in all colts and saa types chambered for .45 colt. It is supposed to be the safest maximum load for all types of guns.
I emailed tim from buffalo bore, and he recommended the 255gr keith bullet.

Thanks Guys. Also, thanks mike101- I do think you are right.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

Buffalo standard load

There you go - that'd be the best bet for factory IMHO.

As to handloading, I recommend Winchester Large Pistol primers (will say for standard and magnum loads), Winchester or Remington or Starline or Frontier brass - Oregon Trail/Laser Cast semi wadcutter 255 grain bullets
( http://www.laser-cast.com/45Cal.html ) - powder will depend on what works best in your revolver - 8 grains of Winchester 231 is usually an accurate load and should give 900 fps+ of velocity.

Mike - just a note about the "proofing" that you mentioned - it was with the RUGER cylinder, not the replacement cylinder - I believe you will find some significant dimensional differences between the two.

 

[mike101]

Right, that was the percussion cylinder. My point was that the gun itself was strong enough.

That Buffalo Bore ammo you mentioned IS new. Wasn't on their website a few months ago. Winchester also has a couple of standard .45 Colt rounds that would be suitable, and I think Remington might. So, you have a pretty decent selection of .45 Colt, these days.

Gee, now I'm getting the urge for another Old Army, again. I had one back in the early '80's. Should have kept it.

 

[songsofreedom]

Thanks for the info OSOK- I will do that, maybe push it to 10 grains? It sounds like it will be fun to roll my own-

Mike, you should get another old army. I just got mine, I'm thinking about getting two more, but don't know which one first. I want a blued one now, with ivory grips. The yin and yang of old army's I don't know what is the best way to carry both.. Should I do one in left hand and right hand? I'm pretty handy with my left too. Or should I get a strong side and crossdraw and wear them together?