Question about standard pressure .38 special in a conversion cylinder

[Thecrazedorganist]

After reading the story about the store owner who took down a baddie with three shots from his SAA, I started wondering about the effectiveness of cowboy loads as defensive rounds.

Some Googling took me to these guys: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23

This is what the company has to say about them:

"Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo. "

How would these compare to your average 45LC cowboy load? Are these safe to use in a Kirst or R&D cylinder?

Also, if I opted for a .45LC conversion cylinder instead of the .38 special is there any standard pressure NON COWBOY ammo that would work in one of those?

 

[Old Fuff]

I presume you are converting a cap & ball revolver to use metallic cartridges. If so, be aware that the bores in C&B replicas are often oversized for the diameter of the bullet you might propose to use. Standard bullet diameter for a .38 Special is .358" and the .45 Colt checks out at .452".

Cap & Ball replicas go all over the book, so each particular revolver should be slugged and measured, but a typical .36 will have a groove diameter around .375" to .380", while a .44 can run .452" to .460" In an ideal world the barrel's groove diameter and that of the bullet should match, give or take .002".

If the bore is substantially oversized bullet velocity and accuracy will suffer.

Those cap & ball style revolvers that are originally made with a metallic cartridge cylinder usually have a barrel bored to match the cartridge it's intended to use.

For a number of reasons, a cap & ball conversion is a poor choice as a defensive weapon. If that is what you want it would be far better to take the money that would be spent on a conversion cylinder and put it toward buying something more practical for the purpose you have in mind.

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

Thanks for the reply. It was mostly an academic question. I have absolutely no doubt about my Remy's ability to ruin somebody's day with a good ol' .454 ball. I'd been toying with the idea of getting a pocket Remington, but I'll set that notion to rest and buy a Bond when I move out of California!

 

[Old Fuff]

Well there was a time when a .454" ball backed with a stout charge of black powder did rack up an impressive record, but that was a long time ago...

As you seem focused on the 19th century Old West, consider one of the current reproductions of the S.A.A. Sheriff Model chambered in .45 Colt. I can think of better picks for concealed carry, but one will do as well as they ever did, and you don't have to worry about the bore size matching the cartridge.

 

[mykeal]

Just for the record, and to keep alive for a moment the academic nature of the thread, what in the world is Buffalo Bullets talking about when they say,

loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo....the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard.... powerful standard pressure loads

What is a "typical +P power level" in horsepower, or BTU's/hr, or watts, or joules/second?

 

[Ratdog68]

Just for the record, and to keep alive for a moment the academic nature of the thread, what in the world is Buffalo Bullets talking about when they say,

What is a "typical +P power level" in horsepower, or BTU's/hr, or watts, or joules/second?

I'd imagine they're speaking of fps and ft/lbs of energy for a .38+P load (hotter than a .38spl, but not as hot as a .357mag. As I recall the .38+P was developed for either the FBI, or LE in general as a means of having something less potent than a .357 in an urban setting.

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

I like the looks of these, myself http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6711.html

 

[Old Fuff]

I'm beginning to think you're a hopeless case....

At one time it was pointed out that you could shorten a top-break Smith & Wesson's barrel to as little as 1 1/2" inches and not lose the automatic cartridge ejection feature. Colt and others couldn't match that. But don't tell the folks in Hollywood about it.

At one time there was a difference between "standard" and "Plus-P" ammunition, but today it's mostly (but not always) advertising hype. No Internet gunny will leave home without the latest Plus-P rounds lest he become involved in a gunfight, because if he doesn't have "the edge" all will be lost.

Other then reducing the weight of the bullet, I know of no way to increase velocity (and therefore energy, which is meaningless) unless pressure in the bore goes up too.

 

[mykeal]

Actually I was hoping someone would notice that Buffalo Bore's claim was specious; the concept of 'power' as applied to bullets has no meaning. Now, if they had actually said velocity or energy we might have been able to make some sense of their claim, but by using power they avoid being held responsible for actually producing something meaningful.

 

[higene]

.36 caliber with conversion cylinders

I wonder how a 38 special HBWC would work in conversion cylinder guns, has anyone tried this?

 

[Old Fuff]

The hollow base may or may not seal in the bore, but the rest of the undersized bullet just wobbles along and rides on the top of the lands. Not good for accuracy.

Prior to the arrival of conversion style revolvers made as metallic cartridge guns in the first place, a common but expensive solution was to bore out the barrel and install a liner with a correct internal size.

The bottom line is how fussy are you about the groups you shoot?

The Old Fuff is VERY fussy.

 

[BCRider]

Other then reducing the weight of the bullet, I know of no way to increase velocity (and therefore energy, which is meaningless) unless pressure in the bore goes up too.

If the powder they are using is a slightly slower burn the max pressure may not be any higher than standard but the peak pressure may last for a longer percentage of the time the bullet is in the barrel. If this is the situation here wouldn't that produce a faster velocity overall compared to a shorter peak and falloff in the pressure?

On the other hand the link in the first post is taking us to some ammo that seems to be a fast burning "low flash" snub nose specific load. That would run totally counter to a longer burn, flatter peak pressure sort of load.

 

[Old Fuff]

Under any circumstances the bullet isn't in the barrel very long. What slower burning powder will get you is more muzzle flash. A slower burning powder will give one higher velocity at standard pressures in a longer barrel up to a point, but changing powders can only do so much. In a perfect world all of the powder would burn in the chamber and barrel, but then a hot load in a snubby might be sub-par in a longer length. As the bullet moved down the barrel more space would be created, but no additional gas to fill it.

 

[BCRider]

Yeah, that makes sense and seems to fit in with the longer pistol and short rifle barrel stuff I've done so far.

It seems from seeing barrel vs velocity charts the significant gains come up more when the barrels are in the 7 to 8 inch length range.