SAFE Cracking Question

[Frank Tillman]

Hope a1abdj is around.

I'm trying to get clear on something. If you force the handle of a
quality safe such as an AMSEC Amvault TL30 with something like
a long pipe to get powerful leverage, where there isn't any shear
pin or slip clutch that disengages, (I don't think I want a clutch
or shear pin because I have heard some bad things) can you break
the internals and open the safe????

I have heard you can open safes this way?

Anyone know?

Thanks.

 

[444]

I don't know the answer to your question.
I am posting mainly to see the answer, when and if anyone does answer.


FWIW: I find a lot of this stuff about home safes to be ridiculous. I was watching a video the other day where two guys threw an empty safe on it's side and then attacked it with prybars and had it open in short order. I am not disputing that this is possible, but with my safe in my house, you arn't going to be able to throw it down on it's side and attack it with pry bars. My safe is full of stuff, it is heavy. And my safe is in my basement and you don't have room to do something like that.
Point being, while some of this stuff may indeed be possible, it isn't likely to work in the real world very often in my opinion.

I have read a number of threads about safe fire ratings and again in my opinion, most of the people posting were talking crazy: the safe can only handle an hour at a thousand degrees or something...........so this safe is a piece of junk.......... Ridiculous

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Let's take a look at some of the points. Only with the cheapest boxes are you going to be able to force the handle & open the unit. These are the type of unit that a determined 10 year old with a big screwdriver can get into anyway.

The point in the "Security On Sale" video isn't that it's on it's back, it's that it can be pried open at all. In that video, it takes about a minute-forty four seconds to pop it if I remember correctly. The whole video lasts maybe five minutes. A safe shopper will watch the entire video whether in the home or at a sales point, it's short enough. With the safe bolted down & upright, the guys are still going to get it open, it'll just take longer, maybe 8 to 10 minutes. People won't watch two guys prying on it for that long, the video is no longer a good sales tool. The video wasn't produced to represent an actual theft, it was made to be a sales tool. The point being that if the bolts in the door lock up behind bent sheet metal, & the door fit is sloppy enough to get the tip of the prybar in, then the unit can be forced in a fairly short time. The video's title says it all: Security On Sale.

I'm not sure just what 444 finds ridiculous about the thermal ratings, that wasn't clear to me. What I am clear about is that the U.L. thermal protection rating are the only ones worth paying attention to. In other words, if you don't know the test parameters, the time/temp numbers produced don't mean squat. You can't find those parameters for the Pyro 3000 test, or the BTU test, or the Omega Laboratories test, or even Uncle Bob's backyard BBQ test, so you can't make an apples to apples comparison between tests.

900F

 

[444]

Basically what I find ridiculous is when someone takes some worst case scenario and then makes it out to be a big issue. In a worst case scenario, anything will fail. The question is, is this situation likely and is it worth worrying about ? Obviously if you have the money trying to get the best possible solution is worthwhile. But for most of us, I think we need to be realistic and not avoid buying something you can afford and do without just because it won't survive some one in a million scenario.

Yes, if you have the tools, and the time, and the place, you can probably get into most safes. Is this realistic ? In my opinion, it isn't likely during a home break-in, unless you are talking about a very weak design. Most real safes, are going to keep out all but the most knowledgeable pros in most situations. No safe is going to keep everyone out every time. People have broken into bank vaults. This fact alone in my opinion doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile safe.

When I was talking about fire ratings, I have seen people talk about very high temperatures for very long lengths of times: and they are right, exposed to a high enough heat for a long enough time, the fire protection will fail. I just don't see that as being a realistic situation. I suppose if you had the safe in an enclosed area that couldn't vent, and no one attempted to fight the fire, it's possible but again: the heat shields on the space shuttle failed, so anything can fail. But a lot of the stuff I see posted doesn't seem likely to me in a house fire.

 

[CB900F]

444;

Please do a search on this site for the difference between a U.L. rated safe and an RSC. Many RSC's, in my professional opinion, offer minimal protection. It isn't at all unreasonable or, more importantly unknown, for a fully involved house fire to exceed virtually all the RSC's fire rating. Not by a little bit either, but by total loss of contents amounts of heat.

I agree & have openly stated here before, that anything is better than nothing. But, buy the best protection you can afford, not the cool decal on the door. In order to differentiate between marketing hype and getting decent protection for the dollar, you have to do some research.

900F

 

[444]

Yeah I have read that several times over the years.

I am no expert on safes.
I am no expert on fire behavior.
That being said, I am not just running my mouth. I am a retired fire fighter. I worked for an ISO Class 1 department in a medium sized city with a call volume in excess of 150,000 calls per year. EVERY company on the department had a thermal imaging camera for the later half of my career. Every time we went in a house fire we had three or four TICs in the building. They are all equipped with a thermometer. I knew what the temperature was. I knew where it was the hottest. I knew how long it stayed that hot.

If you read what I wrote, I said it may be possible to get that hot, but unlikely. I also wrote that if you have the money, by all means, buy the best. But I don't just think, I know, most of these horror stories told on the Internet and by safe manufacturers are not common occurrances.

 

[CapnMac]

Which is fine for those of us who live in medium-sized cities. Shoot, I live only 4 blocks from Station 5--my worries are different now than they once were.
I have friends who were in Bastrop, Texas (not a medium-sized city, it's a VFD with 45 FF). Those folks lived out of the city and on the edge of Bastrop State Park, after the 2011 wildfire, both houses were total losses. The Armscor in one survived (other than taking a tumble in the structure collapse); the Ft Knox RSC in the other did not fare so well--even if the shell was still standing in the embers and charcoal.

 

[mjsdwash]

does anyone know the answer to the question though? outside of fire protection, RSC like Sturdy advertise direct linkages that do not slip, and supposedly cannot be forced, and i too would like to hear if anyone knows more.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

The original question was answered in the first paragraph of post #3.

900F

 

[Frank Tillman]

"The original question was answered in the first paragraph of post #3."
900F


I don't think so, that was just a generalized opinion, based on what?
I heard Liberty(think it was Liberty) put the slip clutch on it's safes because theirs could be
easily opened that way. The new Amsec BF HD I think has a disengage of
some sort, why did they put it on? Wish a1abdj was around.

 

[mjsdwash]

https://www.sturdysafe.com/pages/sturdy-gun-safes-linkage-design This is what i was thinking. "so strong no amount of human force" - does that mean by pulling on the handle, or with a 5' pipe? what about a sledge hammer? I imagine it means it can take a few thousand pounds of force before opening, or maybe the lockout is so strong the actual handle breaks first? Any first hand experience with actual attempts, or tests? If it is so strong that you break the handle off that seems kinda stupid to say its better than a clutch. Maybe you pull off your broken handle and stick a tool in there?

 

[a1abdj]

I'm trying to get clear on something. If you force the handle of a
quality safe such as an AMSEC Amvault TL30 with something like
a long pipe to get powerful leverage, where there isn't any shear
pin or slip clutch that disengages, (I don't think I want a clutch
or shear pin because I have heard some bad things) can you break
the internals and open the safe????

I have heard you can open safes this way?

It would ultimately depend on the design of the safe. There are surely some safes that could be opened by forcing the handle. I even encountered a very high end safe recently, a much older model, that had this weakness. If one of the two locks were left unlocked, hitting the handle hard with your bare fist would open it. This was a safe designed to hold well into the high six figure range.

Installing a weak link in the system could prevent a forced opening in this fashion. I would say more importantly, it prevents damage that would make the expense of putting the safe back into service much more expensive after a burglary attempt.

I have seen this accomplished in many different ways. Handles that are simply hard to force based on their shape or size. Shear pins. Clutch mechanisms. Materials or machining that causes handles to break. They all have their pros and cons, and just about every quality safe uses one or more of these features.

 

[Frank Tillman]

I believe you deal in Amsec, is the AMSEC Amvault CF TL30

designed to prevent forced handle opening?

Any comments on this safe?

Thanks.

 

[a1abdj]

is the AMSEC Amvault CF TL30

designed to prevent forced handle opening?

Yes. Just about every high security safe will be designed to prevent excessive force on the handle to travel through the bolt work.

Any comments on this safe?

They're OK. We sell several brands new, and sell just about everything else used. When I'm dealing with a customer I assess their total situation prior to recommending a particular safe.

 

[Frank Tillman]

Thanks.

I'm moving in 2 months, still in California, will be getting at least 2 safes as
soon as I get ownership of the property. Think you are in Missouri.

What I want is for all to have the same combination that I want, and
key locking dials with the same key, if possible? and 4 keys total.


I will contact you to see if you can have this all taken care of for me.
I don't mind paying some for trusted professional service.

Later

 

[Walkalong]

I agree & have openly stated here before, that anything is better than nothing. But, buy the best protection you can afford, not the cool decal on the door.

Absolutely agree. My home was burglarized recently and my guns were saved by having them in an RSC/safe. It was a typical in and out fast robbery and it didn't look like they even attempted entry of the RSC/safe. If the guns had been out, or in a closet, etc, like so many are when stolen, they would be gone, so the something is better than nothing part is verifiable true and I don't understand people with no protection whatsoever for firearms in their home. The buy the best you can afford is also great advise. Like choosing a scope, buy at a price point where it hurts at least a little bit. Worse is better.

 

[Frank Tillman]

" My home was burglarized recently and my guns were saved by having them in an RSC/safe. It was a typical in and out fast robbery and it didn't look like they even attempted entry of the RSC/safe."

Good point.

My concern about the guns isn't about them being stolen, but
rather being used against me. They can have the guns, I have very
important papers and valuables that I want hidden in good real safes.
Safe deposit boxes are good except the feds go in them all the time
even if they are only curious. I know this for sure, as an attorney I have
dealt extensively with the feds, and it is true.

You're right about the gun safe, a sneak burglar usually doesn't spend
effort and time on a safe that looks too heavy to carry and secure enough
to resist easy opening. Someone that knows it's there and going in to
open it is a different story, that's why it's important to not let anyone
know you have valuables in the house, keep the safe with valuables hidden
and a secret.

 

[Walkalong]

Good points.

a1abdj can certainly help you out.