safe to keep 1911 on half cock?

[blakec3686]

hey everybody
im new and just wanna say that u guys (and gals ) seem very knowedgable (sp?).
and a question for those of you who know 1911 like the back of ur hand. sombody told me that in ww2 u.s. soldiers who were left handed and carried colts kept them at half cock becuase they couldnt properly disengage the safty so they left the saftey off and carried it in half cock. Is this in anyway safe?? and does the 1911 even have a half cock? anyways thanks all for ur help
blake

 

[Harold Mayo]

Either carry in condition 3 (no round chambered and hammer all the way down) or carry in condition 1 (round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on). There is no other way, IMHO. If you are a lefty, get an ambi safety.

There is no "safe" gun.

 

[Josey]

There is truth in that WWII story. I wouldn't do it today though. There are three ways to carry a 1911. Empty, slide locked back with no mag. Empty, chamber clear and hammer down with a loaded mag inserted. One in the chamber, loaded magazine inserted, cocked and safety on. Many things are done in combat that aren't safe.

 

[blakec3686]

thanks alot guys
thats pretty much figured ive shot a neighbors 1911 45 and i loved it so much that as soon as i turn 21 i will be gettin one (hevent decided which brand) but i do kno that the .45 1911 is my favorite handgun of all time.
blake

 

[dsk]

The 1911 is NOT safe to carry at half-cock. That was not what the half-cock notch was designed for. Its sole purpose is to catch the hammer if it should fail to reach the full-cock position during cycling. A good blow to the hammer at half-cock can shear the notch and cause an AD.

 

[Jim Watson]

It IS safe to carry with the hammer ALL THE WAY DOWN, and the lefthanded owner of the larger gun store in town carried a Commander that way for years. I did, too, until I realized he had learned that BECAUSE he was lefthanded and started with the gun before ambi safeties were available.

The trick is GETTING the hammer all the way down. Pulling the trigger and easing the hammer down is possible, but has a lot more room for error than just snicking on the safety.

The military has always called for empty chamber carry and anybody doing anything else is going against regulations and without training. That is why they have clearing barrels full of sand at convenient locations.

 

[Tamara]

It IS safe to carry with the hammer ALL THE WAY DOWN,

Only on versions with a firing pin safety, of course (Series 80's, Series II Kimbers, S&W's, etc.) On a gun without one, a blow to the hammer could bust a cap.

The military has always called for empty chamber carry and anybody doing anything else is going against regulations and without training.

Not always. See Chapter 1, Section IV of FM 23-35.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

It IS safe to carry with the hammer ALL THE WAY DOWN

The original post involved WW II pistols, and I dont think it would be safe to carry that way with a WW II era 1911.

 

[Old Fuff]

There are three possible ways to carry a 1911 pattern pistol with a loaded chamber.

1. With the hammer all of the way down. This is safe because the original Browning design uses what is called an “inertial firing pin†which is shorter then the hole it is placed in. Therefore the tip of the pin doesn’t rest on the primer in the chambered round, and since the hammer is flat against the firing pin stop/plate there is no way a blow on the hammer can impact the firing pin hard enough to drive it forward.

2. With the hammer in half-cock. “dsk†correctly pointed out that this isn’t safe. In theory, if not practice the hammer can fall if struck by a hard blow with sufficient force to drive the inertial firing pin forward so that it strikes the primer. It will be a light blow, but if the primer is sensitive it may be enough.

3. At full-cock, with the manual safety engaged. (So-called “condition one†or “cocked and locked.â€) In theory this is the safest way, but under some circumstance theory may not match reality. The manual safety does not block the hammer, but rather the sear. If the sear breaks, or a trigger pull job reduces the depth of the hooks on the hammer enough, the sear may not hold against a hard blow on the hammer. If the hammer falls the half-cock notch is supposed to catch it, but if for some reason, such as a damaged or broken sear, it doesn’t the hammer could fall with enough force to detonate a primer. Past experience shows that this seldom happens, but in an age when manufacturers are changing from tool steel hammers and sears to MIM lockwork the possibility should be of added concern.

A positive firing pin block or lock can prevent an accidental discharge caused by a blow on the hammer, but they sometimes present a problem of their own. Some require a substantial amount of travel in the trigger to insure the lock or block is disengaged so that the pistol will fire. If a pistol is modified with a trigger designed to limit this travel for the purpose of eliminating backlash the firing pin safety may not fully disengage, leading to a light or no firing pin hit on the primer.

Unfortunately there is no free lunch.

 

[Jim Watson]

There is a sign in one of my agency's laboratories: "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

I marched to the loading bench, decapped and primed an empty .45 ACP case with a Federal primer, the most sensitive on the market. I chambered it in my WW I GI Colt; hoping I wouldn't hurt the extractor with a couple of snapovers.

I am not prepared to drop my guns on your sayso, so I settled for whacking the lowered hammer with a plastic mallet. A dozen repetitions, working up to about the same swing I use with an inertia bullet puller did NOT fire or even mark the primer.

After checking for a mark, I reloaded the primed case. Then I eased the hammer back partway, feeling for the half cock notch. I got the hammer to stand with the sear on the edge of the half cock notch, a contition once known as "false half cock" and much warned against in days of single action revolvers and lever action rifles. I pulled the trigger. BANG!

From this I conclude that there is not a great risk of firing a round by impact on a fully lowered 1911 hammer; but that it is not a bit safe to leave it at half cock with a round in the chamber. And there is certainly a risk in the process of lowering the hammer.

Anybody wants to try it a few hundred times to build up some statistics is welcome to try, but I have confirmed my position to my own satisfaction. Not that it matters much, I haven't had a gun in Condition 2 in 25 years or more.

 

[Tamara]

Jim Watson,

Cool. Experiment beats theory every gosh-durned time.

My (apparently unfounded) paranoia was based on the fact that 1911's tend to have fairly generous amounts of firing pin protrusion and I was skeered that the vagaries of manufacturing tolerances could leave some firing pins more inertial than others.

Thanks for checking it out.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tamara:

Your "paronoia" isn't totally unfounded. It's always a good idea to make this easy check on any 1911-style pistol that doesn't have a positive firing pin lock/block.

Pull back the slide and lock the pistol open. Of course make sure the magazine is removed and the chamber's empty. (I know you do this, but this instruction is for other readers who way not.) Push on the back of the firing pin with something that's flat, such as a wide-bladed screwdriver. Anything will work so long as it doesn't depress the firing pin beyond the outside surface firing pin stop. Then look at the breechface to see if the firing pin is sticking out. It shouldn't be. All of this can be done in far less time then it takes to describe it, and will help insure your peace of mind. I always do this when handling or inspecting a pistol that is new to me.

 

[blakec3686]

thanks for you quick replys all i learned alot if i end up using a 1911 as a carry weapon i will more than likely carry it in condition one. im a lefty so i will have to get an ambi saftey for it becuase i think it would be hard to have to thumb back the hammer should the need to draw the weapon arise.
blake

 

[cratz2]

History is history but these is modern times.

Many folks that carry a 1911 do so because when carried cocked and locked, they are just about the very fastest pistol to bring into action. If you're a lefty, get an ambi and carry it cocked and locked. Carrying with an emtpy chamber (hammer down, safety off) might be very good for someome's AD-oriented peace of mind, but makes for about the slowest into action time possible.

Carrying with a loaded chamber, safe off, hammer on half-cock seems about the most dangerous possible manner to me... I'd rather carry with the hammer all the way down on a loaded chamber with the safety off than with the hammer at half cock but I'd still need an awful lot of convincing to carry (concealed) in any manner other than cocked and locked.

 

[zahc]

I fail to see how a 1911 is faster than a glock etc.

 

[BluesBear]

Jim Watson, I heartily agree with you. I did that same test about 20 years ago with the same results. However, if you do that same test and hit the muzzle you WILL get it to fire!

The newer Colt pistols have a halfcock shelf and not a notch. WHen you pull the trigger the hammer will fall. I have not, however, using 4 different guns, been able to get a cartidge to fire doing this. In fact I have never been able to get a mark on the primer.

I consider the shelf arrangement to be safer for lowering to condition 2. You can hold the hammer spur, pull the trigger to disengage the sear and lower the hammer while releasing the trigger. When it reaches halfcock tiy can then pull the trigger to complete the act.

 

[dsk]

I fail to see how a 1911 is faster than a glock etc.

I agree, a Glock will blow your broach n' earrings off faster than any other pistol on the market, especially if you don't use a holster.

 

[1911Tuner]

Blow it Off

dsk said:

I agree, a Glock will blow your broach n' earrings off faster than any other pistol on the market, especially if you don't use a holster.


ROFL Dana... How droll...How tongue-in-cheek. I gotta remember that one.

There are two ways to carry the 1911. Hot chamber, cocked and locked,
or with an empty chamber. Hammer position on the latter is your option.
Lowering the hammer to fully down or to half-cock lends too much opportunity for our old friend Murphy to crash the party.

Yes. The 1911 carried in Condition One is faster from the holster for the first shot on target than the Glock or any other trigger-cocker. The accomplishments of Bill Jordan and his Model 19 Smith & Wesson notwithstanding. That man was some KINDA fast...but his was the exception born of endless hours of practice, discipline, and natural ability.
Absolutely perfect timing was the key, as Jordan began the trigger stroke
before the revolver cleared the holster. Tricky and dangerous. I think
his record for hitting an aspirin tablet 15 feet away was a tick over a quarter-second from signal to shot. Most of us can't even react to the signal and start moving our hand in that amount of time.

Now for the shocker. The handgun that holds the all-time record for fastest
first-shot hit from the leather? The 1873 Colt Single-Action Army.

And now you have the rest....of the story. (With apologies to Paul Harvey)

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Jim Watson]

"However, if you do that same test and hit the muzzle you WILL get it to fire!"

Yep, BluesBear that's what they say. There have been calculations to show that a drop on the muzzle will cause discharge. They give anything from a 3 foot free fall to a 17 foot drop. Maye it has been seen in the field, but I do not have a reliable report of it.

I decided to abuse my gun a little more for the edification of the board.

Phase 2, step 1. Load a primed case, ease hammer down. Whack 1911 on muzzle, harder than I was hitting the hammer yesterday. Hammer sets back to half cock. Primer has a slight mark, about what you see if you eject an unfired round from an AR15.
Step 2. Repeat, with hammer cocked. Same size mark.
Step 3. Load a primed case. Drop gun muzzle down from eye level. About 5'6" in my case. Full circle indention in my kitchen pantry floor, showing that the gun landed with muzzle straight down. Same size mark in primer.

So I will accept that enough of a blow on the muzzle with a very sensitive primer and a weak firing pin spring might fire the round. But conditions would have to be just right and you would have to be very unlucky. I'm not going to worry about it. Anybody who wants to extend the experiment with a bigger hammer or a longer fall is welcome to experiment with his own gun.

 

[45crittergitter]

Welcome to THR, Blake!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It IS safe to carry with the hammer ALL THE WAY DOWN,


Only on versions with a firing pin safety, of course (Series 80's, Series II Kimbers, S&W's, etc.) On a gun without one, a blow to the hammer could bust a cap.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't see how, since the hammer is down against the slide/firing pin retainer, and since the fp is too short to reach from the hammer to the primer. You can whack all you want to and no bang. Of course, if you whack the muzzle, well, that's why they call it an inertial firing pin...

Further, if carrying cocked and locked, a non-fp-locked version could still fire if the muzzle is hit hard enough.

 

[Majic]

I fail to see how a 1911 is faster than a glock etc.

Shorter trigger stroke.

 

[BluesBear]

Jim, I neglected to say that in my testing the only time I was able to get a 1911 to fire from a muzzle drop with the hammer cocked was in conjunction with a weakened firing pin spring. However with the hammer down on a loaded chamber it will do it almost every time.

I was standing next to an officer at a Gun Show in Muncie*, IN back in the early 1980s who had just placed his condition 2 Colt into his Jackass shoulder holster. It seems the thumbsnap was a little loose and it released the weapon. I watched it slide from under his jacket, down the outside of his left leg rotating muzzle down as it hit the floor against his boot right at the ball of the foot.

Dang it was loud! We could never find ANY fragments of the Winchester Silvertip bullet. It seems to have totally disentegrated against the concrete floor. There was a black smudge on the side of his boot from the muzzle flash. Luckily there were only about ½ dozen people remaining in the building.

So it would appear that a muzzle down discharge would do little or no damage to the person dropping the gun, or to anyone else unless you were on the second floor, or above, the people below might be less than safe.

This instance is what led me to start my testing. I wanted to make sure I was never that embarassed.


*Edited to correct location city.

 

[tommytrauma]

thanks for you quick replys all i learned alot if i end up using a 1911 as a carry weapon i will more than likely carry it in condition one. im a lefty so i will have to get an ambi saftey for it becuase i think it would be hard to have to thumb back the hammer should the need to draw the weapon arise.
blake

Blake, welcome to the board.

I'm a leftie too, and carried a .45 in the military in the early '80s. It was a pain in the butt to manipulate the safety. The great thing though, is that any decent manufactuer offers ambi safeties nowdays. I think you'll find that pretty much everybody agrees that condition 3 is the only appropriate way to carry a 1911 for defensive use.

Welcome to the cult of the 1911.

 

[1911Tuner]

Southpaws

Howdy to all you southpaws out there.

I've got a range bud who is amongst your number. He shoots a 1911,
and is some kinda qhick from the leather to the first shot or three, and
he doesn't use an ambi-safety. He's become so adept at snickin' the
safety off with his left index finger as his hand closes on the butt, that
you'd almost swear that it's cocked and unlocked. Practice, practice,
practice...As long as your finger stays clear of the trigger until the
gun is comin' on target, you won't have a problem. The key is to
practice the move in slow-motion over and over until you've got it
hard-wired into your presentation.

Improvise! Adapt! Overcome! Hoorah!

Tuner

 

[Jim Watson]

BluesBear,

Please detail some of your drop tests. I have whacked and dropped my gun all that I am willing to do and it has barely marked a primer.

The instance you describe at the gun show is very alarming. If that gun had to slide out of a shoulder rig and slither out from under a jacket and down the side of his leg, it for sure was not moving nearly as fast as in free fall.

Tommytrauma,

In Cooper parlance, Condition 3 is chamber empty. I don't see any agreement on that for serious carry. Condition 1, cocked and locked is my choice.