tommytrauma
Member
Absolutely right. Thank you for catching my gaffe.
safe to keep 1911 on half cock?
- Thread starter blakec3686
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Absolutely right. Thank you for catching my gaffe.
BluesBear
member
Jim, this thread has most of it.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
Also note that the AD was on a gun in condition 2.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
Also note that the AD was on a gun in condition 2.
Jim Watson
Member
Thanx.
Mine would mark the primer when hit on the muzzle or dropped on a vinyl tile floor about the same whether in C1 or C2. Neither was any more than what you see when unloading an AR. But I use Wolff XP firing pin springs in my guns.
I think the cop in question's gun was seriously out of order to fire with the drag of sliding out from under his jacket and down his leg slowing its trip to the floor. Did you get to take it apart? Did it even HAVE a firng pin spring?
As to the safety of a firing pin block, which is worse in your opinion; a gun that MIGHT fire if dropped far enough, or a gun that won't go off when the trigger is pulled? I have personally seen Colt S80s and heard more than one report of Kimber SIIs that would not clear the firing pin block to shoot.
I have a Colt OACP that has been THOROUGHLY checked out for proper firing pin block operation. My only other firing pin block 1911 mutant is a 1991A1 match gun with the guts omitted.
To quote a usually reliable source (BluesBear) "Easy fix is just don't drop your weapon." I never have until this thread got me to do it on purpose.
Mine would mark the primer when hit on the muzzle or dropped on a vinyl tile floor about the same whether in C1 or C2. Neither was any more than what you see when unloading an AR. But I use Wolff XP firing pin springs in my guns.
I think the cop in question's gun was seriously out of order to fire with the drag of sliding out from under his jacket and down his leg slowing its trip to the floor. Did you get to take it apart? Did it even HAVE a firng pin spring?
As to the safety of a firing pin block, which is worse in your opinion; a gun that MIGHT fire if dropped far enough, or a gun that won't go off when the trigger is pulled? I have personally seen Colt S80s and heard more than one report of Kimber SIIs that would not clear the firing pin block to shoot.
I have a Colt OACP that has been THOROUGHLY checked out for proper firing pin block operation. My only other firing pin block 1911 mutant is a 1991A1 match gun with the guts omitted.
To quote a usually reliable source (BluesBear) "Easy fix is just don't drop your weapon." I never have until this thread got me to do it on purpose.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Out of Order
Howdy guys,
BluesBear's assertion that the weapon fired is completely possible,
and I believe that it happened exactly as he described. So it
is with any gun that is dropped onto a hard surface. If a gun is in proper
order with all built-in safety devices in good shape, it's unlikely...but still possible. BUT...can any of us bet the farm that all is well...even from day to day with a carry gun that has been fired since the last clean bill of health?
I can't speak for everybody, but I won't rely on it, or any "safety" device, manual or otherwise. Safety devices are those things that give us another
chance when we have a brainfart...nothing more.
The bottom line is that:
It's a GUN! It's NOT safe! Handle it accordingly.
Cheers!
Tuner
Howdy guys,
BluesBear's assertion that the weapon fired is completely possible,
and I believe that it happened exactly as he described. So it
is with any gun that is dropped onto a hard surface. If a gun is in proper
order with all built-in safety devices in good shape, it's unlikely...but still possible. BUT...can any of us bet the farm that all is well...even from day to day with a carry gun that has been fired since the last clean bill of health?
I can't speak for everybody, but I won't rely on it, or any "safety" device, manual or otherwise. Safety devices are those things that give us another
chance when we have a brainfart...nothing more.
The bottom line is that:
It's a GUN! It's NOT safe! Handle it accordingly.
Cheers!
Tuner
BluesBear
member
Until I saw, woth my own eyes and hear, with my own ears, I was of the opinion that a Colt .45 automatic (remember that there were very few other companies making 1911 pattern pistols in 1980) was totally safe to handle in Condition 2.
In an inertia firing pin pistol when the hammer is down the firing pin is about 2-3mm closer to the primer than it is when cocked. This small amount can make a BIG difference in safety.
The fact that I saw HOW the pistol slid down to the floor made me aware of just how easy it was for this to happen.
Yes Jim, I inspected the officers gun. In fact he asked me to take it and see what was wrong with it. I had it for 2 weeks. It was one of the 2 Combat Commanders I tested. It would NEVER fire in Condition 1 and was actually more difficult to make it fire in Condition 2 that several of the others. I used the hard rubber blocks for several reasons. I had enough of them that I could make a large enough area for the gun to land on after the initial bounce. I was the hardest material I could find that wouldn't scratch the finish. And most important, If I could make it fire on them it would be certain fo fire on a hard wood or concrete surface.
My initial test were conducted using a wooden jawed vise and a rubber mallet to strike the muzzle. I was damn near impossibe to even get a mark on the primer. I think the firing pin spring held enough tension on the pin to prevent it from remaining at rest. Once I started the drop test I realized that the same spring didn't have enough tension to prevent the object in motion from remaining in motion.
It was this instance and the resultant testing that caused me to change my mind regarding carry of the .45. It is also the reason I was so glad to see the Series 80 come to market. Once I got my first S80 and tested it I sold all of my pre-80 guns and have never looked back. I have at arms reach of my desk right now, my pet Colt Government Series 80, loaded with 9 rounds, with the hammer down in condition 2. But when I carry it, it is in Condition 1. I know, that being a Series 80, that it would be totally safe to carry it in Condition 2, but since 1981 I have ingrained myself to carry in Condition 1.
This is my sixth Series 80 Colt and I have never been able to make the firing pin safety fail. If I still owned any non-FP safety 1911 pattern pistols I would probably replace the firing pin spring with a slightly stronger unit. But even then I would still only carry it in Condition 1.
As for the original question in this thread. Half-cock is not safe. In fact half-cock carry can be damaging to your sear. I "Swensonize" ALL of my personal 1911 hammers to prevent the half-cock notch from ever touching the engagement areas of the sear.
But that's just me, YMMV.
In an inertia firing pin pistol when the hammer is down the firing pin is about 2-3mm closer to the primer than it is when cocked. This small amount can make a BIG difference in safety.
The fact that I saw HOW the pistol slid down to the floor made me aware of just how easy it was for this to happen.
Yes Jim, I inspected the officers gun. In fact he asked me to take it and see what was wrong with it. I had it for 2 weeks. It was one of the 2 Combat Commanders I tested. It would NEVER fire in Condition 1 and was actually more difficult to make it fire in Condition 2 that several of the others. I used the hard rubber blocks for several reasons. I had enough of them that I could make a large enough area for the gun to land on after the initial bounce. I was the hardest material I could find that wouldn't scratch the finish. And most important, If I could make it fire on them it would be certain fo fire on a hard wood or concrete surface.
My initial test were conducted using a wooden jawed vise and a rubber mallet to strike the muzzle. I was damn near impossibe to even get a mark on the primer. I think the firing pin spring held enough tension on the pin to prevent it from remaining at rest. Once I started the drop test I realized that the same spring didn't have enough tension to prevent the object in motion from remaining in motion.
It was this instance and the resultant testing that caused me to change my mind regarding carry of the .45. It is also the reason I was so glad to see the Series 80 come to market. Once I got my first S80 and tested it I sold all of my pre-80 guns and have never looked back. I have at arms reach of my desk right now, my pet Colt Government Series 80, loaded with 9 rounds, with the hammer down in condition 2. But when I carry it, it is in Condition 1. I know, that being a Series 80, that it would be totally safe to carry it in Condition 2, but since 1981 I have ingrained myself to carry in Condition 1.
This is my sixth Series 80 Colt and I have never been able to make the firing pin safety fail. If I still owned any non-FP safety 1911 pattern pistols I would probably replace the firing pin spring with a slightly stronger unit. But even then I would still only carry it in Condition 1.
As for the original question in this thread. Half-cock is not safe. In fact half-cock carry can be damaging to your sear. I "Swensonize" ALL of my personal 1911 hammers to prevent the half-cock notch from ever touching the engagement areas of the sear.
But that's just me, YMMV.
Archie
Member
I reluctantly admit this ONLY in the interest of safety....
A 1911A1 pistol can be fired by striking the muzzle smartly (as in sharply and forcefully, not intelligently) with a rubber hammer.
I was young and dumber. God does watch over fools.
The pistol in question was an Ithaca of about 1943 vintage, as I recall. The firing pin spring was probably the GI orginal.
A 1911A1 pistol can be fired by striking the muzzle smartly (as in sharply and forcefully, not intelligently) with a rubber hammer.
I was young and dumber. God does watch over fools.
The pistol in question was an Ithaca of about 1943 vintage, as I recall. The firing pin spring was probably the GI orginal.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Archie's Confession
Archie...I'm ROFL while I get a visual of the look on your face in the three seconds after that slug took that hammer outta your hand!
Ah, youth! It's a wonder any of us made it to the quarter-century mark...
Cheers!
Tuner
Archie...I'm ROFL while I get a visual of the look on your face in the three seconds after that slug took that hammer outta your hand!
Ah, youth! It's a wonder any of us made it to the quarter-century mark...
Cheers!
Tuner
BluesBear
member
Hammer Swensonization
As far as i know the great Armand Swenson created this modification.
It in no way compromises the safety or standard operation of the pistol.
If you look at a 1911 pattern hammer you'll notice that the half-cock notch or shelf extends the entire width of the hammer. You'll also notice that the full-cock notch does not, since the center is removed in order to allow the hammer strut to pivot.
The entire width of the sear engages the half-cock notch/shelf but only the two outer edges of the sear engage the full-cock notch. If you remove the outer edges of the half-cock notch/sear on the hammer and leave only the middle third then when the hammer engages the sear at half-cock it will not touch either of the critical full-cock engagement points.
If a normal hammer falls against the sear it can peen or roll the edges which can not only degrade your trigger pull, it can even cause it to become unsafe. On the new Series 80 Colts the trigger can be pulled to drop the hammer from the half-cock shelf. With the Swenson modification the full-cock points of engagement aren't affected.
I have done this modification to evey 1911 pattern pistol i have personally owned in the past 29 years. And also on dozens of others for friends and customers.
I have a nice GI Wide Spur Hammer around here somewhere I have modified and been hoarding in the event I find another nice Series 80 Lightweight Commander. If I can find it I'll post a pic.
As far as i know the great Armand Swenson created this modification.
It in no way compromises the safety or standard operation of the pistol.
If you look at a 1911 pattern hammer you'll notice that the half-cock notch or shelf extends the entire width of the hammer. You'll also notice that the full-cock notch does not, since the center is removed in order to allow the hammer strut to pivot.
The entire width of the sear engages the half-cock notch/shelf but only the two outer edges of the sear engage the full-cock notch. If you remove the outer edges of the half-cock notch/sear on the hammer and leave only the middle third then when the hammer engages the sear at half-cock it will not touch either of the critical full-cock engagement points.
If a normal hammer falls against the sear it can peen or roll the edges which can not only degrade your trigger pull, it can even cause it to become unsafe. On the new Series 80 Colts the trigger can be pulled to drop the hammer from the half-cock shelf. With the Swenson modification the full-cock points of engagement aren't affected.
I have done this modification to evey 1911 pattern pistol i have personally owned in the past 29 years. And also on dozens of others for friends and customers.
I have a nice GI Wide Spur Hammer around here somewhere I have modified and been hoarding in the event I find another nice Series 80 Lightweight Commander. If I can find it I'll post a pic.
>> As far as i know the great Armand Swenson created this modification.
It in no way compromises the safety or standard operation of the pistol. <<
Armand may have independently thought of the idea, but Colt was doing the same thing on their Gold Cup/National Match pistols from 1957 onward. This was well before Jeff Cooper writings had created a market for customized 1911 pistols as practical carry weapons. It is a good idea, but the reduced half-cock notch is more vulnerable to cracking if the hammer’s impacted by a hard blow. If you modify standard hammers it’s a good idea to leave a small radius at the bottom rather then a sharp 45-degree angle. You get the same effect without any liability.
It in no way compromises the safety or standard operation of the pistol. <<
Armand may have independently thought of the idea, but Colt was doing the same thing on their Gold Cup/National Match pistols from 1957 onward. This was well before Jeff Cooper writings had created a market for customized 1911 pistols as practical carry weapons. It is a good idea, but the reduced half-cock notch is more vulnerable to cracking if the hammer’s impacted by a hard blow. If you modify standard hammers it’s a good idea to leave a small radius at the bottom rather then a sharp 45-degree angle. You get the same effect without any liability.
Jim Watson
Member
Most of the aftermarket hammers are now cut to clear the engaging sections of the sear at halfcock.
It sounds to me like these people are planning on their hammers following a LOT. If it happens about the second time to me, I seek my gunsmith. And if two licks has hurt the sear, it wasn't much count to start with.
It sounds to me like these people are planning on their hammers following a LOT. If it happens about the second time to me, I seek my gunsmith. And if two licks has hurt the sear, it wasn't much count to start with.
BluesBear
member
Not necessarily.
Think of it this way. The standard half-cock notch drags over the sear every time it is cocked. When modified it doesn't.
trapperjohn
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2004
- Messages
- 567
bump this up because it is important
Mute
Member
BluesBear,
Thank you for confirming what I have believed and told people all along. Condition 1 or 3. Forget condition 2.
I'm guessing that the muzzle drop causes discharge with the hammer down because the firing pin sits further foward then it would if the hammer was cocked. I know some people have tested the muzzle drop with a cocked 1911 and have found that you may need to drop it from as far up as 6+ feet before there's enough inertia to cause a discharge. I'm guessing in condition 2 that drop distance is reduced quite a bit.
Thank you for confirming what I have believed and told people all along. Condition 1 or 3. Forget condition 2.
I'm guessing that the muzzle drop causes discharge with the hammer down because the firing pin sits further foward then it would if the hammer was cocked. I know some people have tested the muzzle drop with a cocked 1911 and have found that you may need to drop it from as far up as 6+ feet before there's enough inertia to cause a discharge. I'm guessing in condition 2 that drop distance is reduced quite a bit.
AirForceShooter
Member
I'm a lefty and carried the .45 in combat.
My choice was condition 0.
It's got a grip safety ofr crying out loud.
See, it's just like a Grock.
Point and click.
When it positively absolutely has to be there.
Never had an AD or ND.
AFS
My choice was condition 0.
It's got a grip safety ofr crying out loud.
See, it's just like a Grock.
Point and click.
When it positively absolutely has to be there.
Never had an AD or ND.
AFS
BluesBear
member
Yes the distance is greatly reduced when the gun is in condition two.
In my testing I marked several primers with a blue magic maker.
In some cases, in condition one, you could see where the firing pin had just barely "kissed" the primer but didn't impact it enough to make a noticeble indentation. Those guns DID fire when tested in condition two.
In the incident that lead to my inital testing of this about 20 years ago the pistol slid down the officers leg a distance of abour four and a half feet and discharged. It wasn't a free fall. I'm sure the action of rubbing against clothing slowed it down somewhat.
But the fact is that when the muzzle made contact with the concrete floor it went, BANG!
Once again let me state that this particular gun had a reduced strength (worn out) firing pin spring.
I don't recall off the top of my old bald head what the firing pin poundage is supposed to be right now. And a lot of my "library" is still not unpacked. However, I'm sure Old Fuff will drop by and share that with us shortly.
This is why I, personally, will only carry a Colt Series 80 1911 pattern pistol.
I like having that extra little bit of security. If you don't pull the trigger it simply can not, will not, fire.
For those who carry a non-seties 80 style pistol my advice is to make sure youhave an in-spec firing pin spring AND an in-spec firing pin. I have seen a few titanium pins that were just a smidgen over length.
Remember it's not just about you. The majority of 1911 uninentional discharges I know of happened while a LEO was handling "evidence".
In my testing I marked several primers with a blue magic maker.
In some cases, in condition one, you could see where the firing pin had just barely "kissed" the primer but didn't impact it enough to make a noticeble indentation. Those guns DID fire when tested in condition two.
In the incident that lead to my inital testing of this about 20 years ago the pistol slid down the officers leg a distance of abour four and a half feet and discharged. It wasn't a free fall. I'm sure the action of rubbing against clothing slowed it down somewhat.
But the fact is that when the muzzle made contact with the concrete floor it went, BANG!
Once again let me state that this particular gun had a reduced strength (worn out) firing pin spring.
I don't recall off the top of my old bald head what the firing pin poundage is supposed to be right now. And a lot of my "library" is still not unpacked. However, I'm sure Old Fuff will drop by and share that with us shortly.
This is why I, personally, will only carry a Colt Series 80 1911 pattern pistol.
I like having that extra little bit of security. If you don't pull the trigger it simply can not, will not, fire.
For those who carry a non-seties 80 style pistol my advice is to make sure youhave an in-spec firing pin spring AND an in-spec firing pin. I have seen a few titanium pins that were just a smidgen over length.
Remember it's not just about you. The majority of 1911 uninentional discharges I know of happened while a LEO was handling "evidence".
BluesBear
member
Poppycock!
1911 guy
Member
Poppycock? Yep! Poppycock!
BluesBear, I agree with you 100 percent. Every time there is a discussion about the various ways to correctly and incorrectly carry a 1911, there are people coming out of the woodwork to blame their lack of mechanical understanding and safety on the handgun.
A 1911 can be safely carried condition 1, cocked and locked, or condition three, a magazine inserted with the chamber empty. Condition two isn't even a condition, it's an accident waiting for some fool to make it happen.
I'm sorry if I seem a little vehement, but some folks here are doing what we accuse the anti's of doing. Blaming bad things on inanimate objects. Guns don't cause crime, neither do guns "just go off". They go off when someone pulls the trigger. Period. End of story. If you don't want it to go off, don't pull the blinkin' trigger!
BluesBear, I agree with you 100 percent. Every time there is a discussion about the various ways to correctly and incorrectly carry a 1911, there are people coming out of the woodwork to blame their lack of mechanical understanding and safety on the handgun.
A 1911 can be safely carried condition 1, cocked and locked, or condition three, a magazine inserted with the chamber empty. Condition two isn't even a condition, it's an accident waiting for some fool to make it happen.
I'm sorry if I seem a little vehement, but some folks here are doing what we accuse the anti's of doing. Blaming bad things on inanimate objects. Guns don't cause crime, neither do guns "just go off". They go off when someone pulls the trigger. Period. End of story. If you don't want it to go off, don't pull the blinkin' trigger!
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