Safety of tasers?

[FTF]

Lawful orders are lawful orders, like it or not. You don't have the authority or discretion to decide to disobey. You will comply or you will go to jail. Period, by whatever means necessary to affect arrest.

Maybe I should PM? I just strongly disagree with this. I was in the military and even when I was in I heard about this 'study' that said that 2/3rds of American servicemen would fire upon American citizens if ordered to.

Speaking only for myself.. I wouldn't do it. I thought long and hard about this when I was in the military. You have to.. it's a volunteer force... they didn't make me join.

I am not a robot. I wouldn't shoot Americans just because my lieutenant told me to. Common sense applies. I wouldn't shoot anyone just because my commander told me to. To hell with complying.. I know what is right or wrong.. which is exactly why I wouldn't comply if it went against my morals... consequences or not...

Maybe I'm just lost, I dunno... these are my .02's. When I meet my maker I DECIDE lawful orders.. not some president or senator.

 

[ceetee]

Essentially any command made by an LEO to a private citizen must be obeyed. You have not the "right," as defined by SCOTUS to refuse lawful orders.. Now here's the sticky part. You are under no obligation to obey UN-lawful orders... WHo's to determine what is and is not a lawful order? SCOTUS has said only the courts may... SCOTUS has required that the citizen comply and seek redress from the courts.

That's crap of the foulest sort. Using this logic, any LEO, anywhere, could order me to attempt to stop a moving train using only my own physical strength, and I would be bound to obey, even to my death. My next of kin, then, would be able to sue.

Balderdash.

A police officer can, in certain situations, give orders that must be obeyed. He doesn't have a blank check to be a puppet master.

Here's the link to the video where the woman was tased for not putting her phone away promptly.

Google any terms having to do with "taser" and "use of force" and you'll come up with page after page listing stories of tasers being used in questionable circumstances. The main issue is not "Are tasers a valuable tool?" They are. And it's not a question of bad cops, or whether or not cops should carry Tasers. Most cops are good cops, and they should have every tool available to them their budget will afford.

The main issue is "Are tasers being used where a lesser degree of force is more appropriate?" I look at each situation and think, "Would that cop be able to handle this if he had no taser available?" Usually, the answer is "Yes." Maybe diplomacy and developing your interpersonal skills is too hard, while reaching for the lightning rod is easier. Maybe it's just too much work to try to handle these things without using "less lethal" force. I've been in situations where the pucker factor was extremely high, and yes... de-escalating the bad ones is hard work, and it takes time. It doesn't work every time. But just because it doesn't work every time doesn't mean you ignore the possibility of handling a situation without reaching for the toy box.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

?where the woman was tased for not putting her phone away promptly?

you watch the same video i did? i .was left with the impression that she swung at cop 2 when he reached in passenger side of car. thats was aside for her monumental performance before the zap. and the academy award winning one after

 

[Roccobro]

Back on topic?

So the thread starter wanted to know if Tasers were safe as they used shock across the chest cavity of a live person. Yes they are. Not a single lawsuit has been won against Taser International from a death. And yes, injuries to both parties from effecting arrests is down in departments that issues tasers (documented).

Secondary questions was answered that the UCLA cops using Tasers were within policy and law (and never trust what a layer says to be truth).

Third question is harder to answer and I don't think is within the scope of this thread and should get it's own as it is a good question that I think should be addressed (not that anything said here actually changes anything in the REAL world). Should Tasers be used against passive resisting lawbreakers?

I think this thread has run it's course. Until the next questionable Taser incident happens and Someone again claims tasers actually kills, this thread topic has been covered ad nausium. God bless our troops and officers on the beat for the freedoms and safety they provide.

Justin
(dead horse kicking boots put away)

 

[brerrabbit]

So if a person that the LEO tases is visually identifiable as being in a class of people more likely to die from being tased, ie elderly/meth etc, it is not the fault of the taser if they die, but their heart's? Even if it could be reasonable proven that they would likely be alive and well if they had not been tased?

So if you tase a man in an oxygen tent, it would be the oxygens fault that he caught fire, not the tasers? After all, he was likely to catch fire anyways and it could not be conclusivly proven that the taser caused the fire.

Sorry but I do not buy the argument.

 

[1911 guy]

Legality is over-rated.

First off, let me clarify the title of my post. We should all obey the law at all times. EXCEPT when it conflicts with moral values. Not how we're feeling that day or our convenience, but moral values. If a police officer asks my assistance, I will render the same unless he asks me to do something I find immoral. I can't honestly even think of an example, the concept seems a little far fetched. A better example would be using force in the constraints of the law. In some states, you can legally use force to protect property. It's legal, but I won't. The same goes for the use of tazers. policy is written in a way that allows their use even in circumstances where they are not advancing anything. In a scenario mentioned already on this board, a handcuffed individual was laying down, not complying with officer requests to walk. They tazered him. To what effect? Legal? Yep, it's policy. Moral? No. Inflicting pain just because you can is never right. If you have to, that's another story.

 

[Reyn]

FWIW, we had an older gentleman go through the instructor class with our instructor who had open heart surgery.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Regarding the UCLA taser incident, it would seem that the officer using the taser WAS in compliance with the policy. If there's blame to be assigned, it's at the executive level and not against the individual officer.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to mention that since
field officers aren't the ones who write policy.

Just to be clear, MO, any order from a LEO is a lawful order and must be obeyed?

Bullseye, Biker.

I was in the military and even when I was in I heard about this 'study' that said that 2/3rds of American servicemen would fire upon American citizens if ordered to.

Here's some detail:

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2797268&postcount=46

Less than 2/3, but enough to be a problem. Change that to non-lethal, less
than lethal, and containment/detention and that number would certainly go
up.

thats was aside for her monumental performance before the zap. and the academy award winning one after

Emphasis mine. Y'know I'd love to have you on video camera and hit you with
a couple zaps to see how you'd react. Better yet, how about your mom? The
officer's comment about "we've been zapped and it's not that bad" is irrelevant.
I've been through NBC training like everyone else in the military and had my
share of gas, does that mean we should chuck the burning puck into someone's
house everytime a warrant is served?

It would be interesting to do a study to see if tasers are more quickly used
on minorities. After all, it is the perfect weapon to abuse. Unlike others
it's hard to discern how much it was repeatedly used on a person --without
video present. Would a LEO be as quick to zap a white college student at
a private college or a well-manicured banker on his cellphone in his Lexus?
Doubtful. It wouldn't be safe to use the taser in situations where paychecks
and pensions aren't at stake. It's between the proverbial rock and the hard
place to be a LEO.

Is there video of Mel Gibson's DUI tasering? Let's check that report....

According to the report, Gibson became agitated after he was stopped on Pacific Coast Highway and told he was to be detained for drunk driving Friday morning in Malibu. The actor began swearing uncontrollably. Gibson repeatedly said, “My life is f****d.” Law enforcement sources say the deputy, worried that Gibson might become violent, told the actor that he was supposed to cuff him but would not, as long as Gibson cooperated. As the two stood next to the hood of the patrol car, the deputy asked Gibson to get inside. Deputy Mee then walked over to the passenger door and opened it. The report says Gibson then said, “I’m not going to get in your car,” and bolted to his car. The deputy quickly subdued Gibson, cuffed him and put him inside the patrol car.

Once inside the car, a source directly connected with the case says Gibson began banging himself against the seat. The report says Gibson told the deputy, “You mother f*r. I’m going to f you.” The report also says “Gibson almost continually [sic] threatened me saying he ‘owns Malibu’ and will spend all of his money to ‘get even’ with me.”

Hmmm....no taser involved at all.....

You know, I also wonder if a taser is more likely to be used towards the
end of a shift, aka, "I don't have time for this ."

There has to be a federal DoJ grant to study the use of tasers in the situations
and with the different kinds of people I mentioned. Can someone point the
way to the right trough?

 

[ceetee]

There have been occaisons where an "conscripted" citizen has been severely injured or killed when ordered to assist and the state has maintained that they are not liable

Then it falls upon you, the individual officer, to determine whether you feel the Nurenberg defense applies to you, or is morally reprehensible. I know which side of the fence I'm on.

Legal? Yep, it's policy. Moral? No. Inflicting pain just because you can is never right. If you have to, that's another story.

I hate it when people say what I've been beating my brains out tryin gto say but just couldn't find the words!

Kudos, 1911 guy

There has to be a federal DoJ grant to study the use of tasers in the situations
and with the different kinds of people I mentioned. Can someone point the
way to the right trough?

Cut me in, and I'll help you do the "research"...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

hmmm

"Quote:
thats was aside for her monumental performance before the zap. and the academy award winning one after

Emphasis mine. Y'know I'd love to have you on video camera and hit you with
a couple zaps to see how you'd react. Better yet, how about your mom? The
officer's comment about "we've been zapped and it's not that bad" is irrelevant.
I've been through NBC training like everyone else in the military and had my
share of gas, does that mean we should chuck the burning puck into someone's
house everytime a warrant is served? "


if i get stupid when i get pulled over you might get to see that video. don't hold your breath though. i've been in the nice chrome bracelets many times and never thought that my best plan was to be belligerent/stupid. especially when i was driving on a suspeneded license. seems this "lady" tried to run a bluff. be a big enough nuisance maybe get away with something. maybe she had some sucess with this tactic in her past. today wasn't her day though.Might have been diffferent if she had the right enabler on the other end of the exchange.
It is funny in the 50 plus times i got locked up i was never under the impression that the events got to unfold on my time or pace. Could be thats why i never had trouble. Tasers weren't a big part of the force continuom back then though they would bust your head though.

and i think her post zap caterwauling were truly worthy of an acting award.
been nailed with stun guns higher voltage than that and once the triggers released its over. stops hurting. now as to the emotional trauma she was going through at not getting her way well then her performance rivals the tantrums my kid threw. my kid learned not to do it this woman might be a lil slower on the learning curve

 

[ceetee]

You earlier railed because you thought I was calling you a communist, then you turn around and accuse me of being a Nazi...

No, I'm NOT calling you a Nazi. I AM saying that if you do something that is morally or legally wrong because you're superiors told you to, you're headed for a fall. I don't care what it says in your SOP manual. Wrong is wrong.

So, if I get what you are saying right, you should not have to assist when requested by an LEO?

You give me the situation, and I'll tell you if I feel justified in helping the LEO out.

Will I help him Tase a college student that's already restrained and on the ground, because that student refuses to stand up? Not no, but HELL NO! Nor will I help him carry said college student out to his unit. Those officers made their own bed, let them lie in it.

I thought you were one of those guys who said you wanted small police forces because you were responsible for your own safety and that of those around you..

Find any post where I said that, and I'll donate $10 to your favorite charity... I want efficient police departments. I want professional officers that have the same regard for personal rights and the same disdain for corruption that I have.

 

[Jeff White]

I think we've had enough of arguing over who called each other which name.

Jeff